ZIONISM / ANTI-----r henkin 2

Ary Posted - 22 April 2010 22:23

Listen!!!!! I can’t believe that you represent the view of Gedolim like this!

Your quotes represent R" Henkin's view BEFORE THE ESTABLISHMENT OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL. If you look at R' Henkin's view AFTER THE ESTABLISHEMENT he actually says in his teshuva that ONE SHOULD THANK HASHEM FOR THE MIRACLES THAT HE DID FOR US WITHIN ERETZ YISRAEL. He states that one does not necessarily have to do this on yom haatzmaut, but one can rather take a second on pesach when one says "omdim alenu lechalotenu" and thank Hashem for the nisim that Hashem did for us...

I am not, chas veshalom accusing you of anything..."kol yisrael chaverim". Hatzlacha

MODERATOR Posted - 22 April 2010 22:49

No, what I quoted was Rav Henkin saying, way after Israel was established, that he opposed its establishment, on Halachic grounds, because its establishment violated the Oaths. In fact, he also says that the holocaust came about as a punishment for the violation of the Oaths:

http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=3217&st=&pgnum=115&hilite=

What Rav Henkin said was that after the against-the-Torah establishment of the State of Israel, the fact is there are now millions of Jews living there and whose safety depends on the physical security of the country, and so nobody should do anything that puts Jews in danger (either that, or the statement I quoted at the beginning of this forum about hisgarus b'umos), including strengthening the Arabs.

Of course, nobody disagrees with that. The Satmar Rebbe writes more than once that now that the State is established, we cannot allow the Arabs to take over, and only prayer - and Moshiach - can safely dismantle the State. No big chidush there.

And what you are quoting regarding thanking Hashem for keeping us miraculously safe, nobody disagrees with that either. What Rav Henkin's message is - as opposed to the way you quoted it - that Yom haatzmaut is NOT the day to thank hashem for keeping Jews safe in EY, because we have always thanked Hashem for keeping us safe, everywhere and at all times, and that includes EY as well, because no matter where Jews are - Omdim aleinu lechaloseinu. And Pesach is the day we celebrate that.

In other words, there is nothing about the safety we have in EY more than the safety we have in any other country or ever had, that merits a separate celebration. We are in danger everywhere, always. And we thank Hashem for keeping us safe. Through Nissim, every day. None of this has anything to do with, and is certainly not unique to, the State of Israel. America, Canada, France, Israel - bechol dor vador omdim aleinu lechaloseinu. And it is only Hashem's chesed - and nisim - that protect us.

(And that’s merely why Yom Haatzmaut is invalid as a holiday for thanking Hashem for safety - the other, main reason they made that day are certainly invalid.)

Yom Haatzmaut is not a Jewish holiday. Celebrating it is against the Torah, for since the establishment of Israel was against the Torah, celebrating it is like celebrating any other aveirah.

How much against the Torah is it? Said the Chazon Ish: Who is a frum APikores nowadays? Anyone who celebrates Yom Haatzmaut, or who says that the Gedolim were responsible for the Jews being killed in Europe."

And the fact that Yom Haatzmaut is ignored in the Torah world is not because they are merely "non-Zionist" as opposed to anti-Zionist. It is because, as the Brisker Rav told Rav Amram Blau - "You fight against Yom haatzmaut and I ignore it. That is because you are not anti-zionist as much as me. To you, it is a day you recognize, even if to oppose; to me, it is nothing at all."

To the Yeshivos, Yom Haatzmaut is ignored for the same reason Ramadan is ignored. Why in the world should we celebrate it - but why in the world should we protest it?

Ary Posted - 03 May 2010 15:28

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Moderator: I am saddened to say that I believe you are mis-representing R' Henkin's zt"l's views unintentionally. The following are the EXACT words of his teshuva, AFTER THE ESTABLISHMENT OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL:

“I was shocked to read in Chomoteinu (Cheshvan 5719) the slanderous notion that we are required to give our lives to frustrate and resist the efforts of the State of Israel in its struggle against those who would rise up against them. This was stated as a psak din based on "Israel is restricted from rebelling against the nations." (Ketubot 111a) [...] but once done, though the admonition was ignored, we are required to support them with mesirut nefesh. [...] Once the state was declared, anyone who plays into the hands of the nations of the world even where there is no imminent danger, is clearly an informer and pursuer (rodef). All the more when there is danger to destruction of life in so doing. [...]

Those essays I wrote before the advent of the state (many of which have been reprinted in my book Leiv Ivra) will testify to the fact that I am not a supporter of the government, and I objected to the entire idea of a state. (It is for this reason I am not a member of Agudah so that I not be judged incorrectly as one who agreed with their position in the founding of the state.) But now it is our obligation that we all support the state in the face of its external enemies and then go on to guide it in the ways of Torah.”

Please do not refrain from posting this: it is not chas veshalom an attack on you, but I want his views clear (I also heard and learned this teshuva during a shir (from the actual hebrew)...

Jewandproud!

MODERATOR Posted - 03 May 2010 15:44

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I have no idea what you are talking about. Thank you for quoting the Rav Henkin, which shows exactly as I stated. (By the way, that article was the one I mentioned in the first post in this thread).

Rav Henkin says that the creation of the State of Israel was against the Oaths. That means it is a terrible crime against Hashem and punishable by mass death and destruction of Jews, at the hands of the Goyim. (Which is why he says elsewhere the Holocaust was a punishment for Zionism.)

And he says that nevertheless, the fact that the creation of Israel was an avarieah is no excuse to support the Arabs, or to frustrate Israel's attempts to protect themselves form the Arabs, and anyone who does so puts the Jews in Israel in danger - whether the danger is "imminent" or not.

Of course that’s true. Again, the Satmar Rebbe also wrote that now that the State of Israel is here, we cannot allow the nations to dismantle it because that would be a sakanah for the Jews living there.

Bother Rav Henkin and the Satmar Rebbe (whose views are not those of that article in HaCHomah or Chomoseinu or whatever it is) hold that the State of Israel is a violation of Hashem's will. It is punishable by terrible death and destruction.

Both also agree that this doesn’t mean you may aid and abet the Arabs, either directly by supporting them in their attacks against Israel or by preventing Israel from protecting their people against them.

However, none of this means (a) everything Israel does is in fact in the interest of protecting the Jews. Israel, like any despot nation, may choose to go to war for political or nationalistic or territorial reasons, sacrificing lives for political gains or various other agendas.

Neither Rav Henkin nor the Satmar Rebbe would say that in such cases the State of Israel itself is nothing but a Rodef against the Jewish people. So too are they Rodfim when they incite and antagonize needlessly the nations of the world.

All Rav Henkin was talking about is, as you quoted, Rav Henkin being opposed to the "notion that we are required to give our lives to frustrate and resist the efforts of the State of Israel in its struggle against those who would rise up against them."

Nothing I wrote here disagrees with that.

But it doesn’t mean that every time Israel does something, including military action, it is in fact engaging is a "struggle against those who would rise up against" it. Nor does it mean that the way Israel does engage in that struggle never puts Jews in danger needlessly for the sake of political goals.

All he is saying is that Israel is not obligated to allow the Arabs to take over, which is what that Chomoseinu article basically said. And someone who tries to make that happen is a Rodef.

No big chidush.