DAAS TORAH-----what is it?

dave17 Posted - 17 April 2002 16:32

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What is daas torah? It seems to be a term that people throw around whenever they hear something that a Rav says.

Are you not allowed to question daas torah?

Is it a relatively new term that people use? Is it diff than emunas chachamim?

I had a conversation with about 10 people about it and everyone seemed to have a diff opinion on what it means.

It would be appreciated if you could clarify it for me.

MODERATOR Posted - 17 April 2002 21:32

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It means that the Torah trains a person to think a certain way - with logic, with accuracy, with wisdom. And - and this is the main point here - it is not possible to attain this type of thinking unless you are a Torah scholar. This is because Torah is the way Hashem thinks. Hashem's thoughts are not only wise, they are "perfection." You can only train your mind to approach G-d's way of thinking by studying it. It is not duplicated anywhere.

The Halachic source for Daas Torah is a SMA is Choshen Mishpat #3, where he writes that the Halachic rulings of the layman tend to be the opposite of those of the Torah.

Rav Chaim Brisker gave numerous examples. Here's one:

He asked educated, clever laymen what they think the Halachah ought to be in a case where your cat drinks up your neighbor's milk (do you have to pay for the milk)? And, what is the Halachah where your son accidentally throws his baseball through your neighbor’s window (do you have to pay for the window)?

He gave a hint: In one case you have to pay, in the other, you don’t.

The laymen said that of course if your son breaks the window you have to pay - you can control your son, but not your cat! Parents have an obligation to make sure their children do not break windows, but there is no obligation to train cats.

The Halachah is exactly the opposite. Your cat is considered your possession, your property, and therefore an extension of yourself. You property damages something, it’s as if you damaged it.

But your son, although there is a moral obligation to teach him right from wrong, legally, he is still not your possession. Therefore, you cannot bring the father to court for the deed of the child. They are two totally different entities.

There are more like this, but the point was, the Torah teaches people to think clearly, properly, and wisely. It also teaches values that are integral in making decisions.

Therefore, the greater a Talmid Chacham you are, the more you understand Torah, that is, the way G-d thinks, the more you are trained in that way of thinking.

Of course, this is all relative. Who has reached that level where his thinking mimics that of the Torah? Obviously, no human being can reach that level completely, since nobody can be perfect like G-d. The gauge to measure how much "Daas Torah" an individual has does not exist. Today, we have no Neviim, no Chazal, no Rishonim, and no Talmidei Chachamim on the levels that existed not long ago.

The question, "What level of Daas Torah exists today"? Is not one that can be objectively answered, since there is no units of measurement for Daas Torah. What we do understand is, that the Torah thinks differently than we do, and that those who are more connected to the Torah think closer to the Torah's way than those who are less.

And it takes more than just knowing Torah. Outside influences also affect a person's Daas. If his mind is influenced by secular thinking, that effects his Daas. If his righteousness is not proportionate to his Torah knowledge, that also effects his Daas. A person's Midos affect his Daas - if someone is not fearless and independent, then he will be influenced by the masses, the way Shaul HaMelech did not kill Agag because he was afraid of what people would say.

If a person has a vested interest in something (a Negiyus), that also effects his thinking. Nobody is immune to Negiyus. The Sanhedrin Hagadol was vulnerable to Negiyus. The leaders of the Sanhedrin, even in the days of Korach, rebelled against Moshe Rabbeinu, because they benefited from financial favors of Korach.

Even the greatest Tzadik can be misinformed. With lack of information, or false information, even the greatest Daas Torah can be terribly mistaken.

And even after all that, nobody is infallible. One of the reasons for the Halachah of "ain onshin min hadin" - that we do not punish people based on a Kal Vachomer - is because a Kal Vachomer is not a tradition but rather logic. And you never know for sure that your logic is not mistaken. You have no right to punish someone else because your logic says he is "chayav." That applies to the Daas Torah even of Chazal.

In addition, there are other factors that can cause great Tzadikim and Talmidei Chachamim to make mistakes. Sometimes, as a punishment for the generation, Hashem will blind the eyes of its leaders, and make the greatest Talmidei Chachamim say the wrong things. This, according to the Maharsha, is why Rav Yochanan ben Zakai "forgot" to ask Aspasyonus to spare Jerusalem. Because the generation was not worthy, Hashem hid the obvious and logical from their leader.

The Torah leaders are spiritually connected to their flock. If the flock is not worthy, the leader is blinded. Even the prophecy of Moshe Rabbeinu, Chazal say, was only for the sake of the people, and when the people were not worthy, Moshe lost his Nevuah.

The Ohr Hachaim says that the reason the Meraglim got so messed up is because even though their (the Meraglim) intentions were pure, but - listen to this! - because those who elected them to the job had the wrong intentions, the character and the imperfections of the people infected their appointed representatives - the Meraglim.

In other words, if you are a Tzadik but elected to your position by non-Tzadikim, then you are in trouble of getting messed up yourself.

amolam Posted - 19 February 2007 15:59

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Something relevant from the Chazon Ish:

…I would like to conclude with a translation of a letter that was written by the Chazon Ish. This letter appears on page 61 of a recent Feldheim publication, entitled “Bimchitzasam shel Gedolei HaTorah.” It was authored by Rabbi Shlomo Lorencz, who was one of the first members of the Knesset from the Agudat Yisrael party. To get a better understanding of da‘as Torah, I recommend reading the entire chapter in which this letter appears:

“The philosophy of dividing the Torah into different sections—the laws concerning permissible and impermissible (isur v’heter) in one section, and decisions concerning our daily lives (shuk ha’chayim) in a separate section; -to be under the influence of gedolim pertaining to the former, but to leave the latter a free-for-all so that every individual will decide those matters for himself—is the old philosophy of the heretics (minim) that caused the downward spiral of German Jewry.

Those who believed in this philosophy led the Jews astray until they assimilated with the goyim and nothing was left. To distinguish between permissible and impermissible, on the one hand, and general enactments (gedarim v’hagzeiros), on the other—such a distinction is considered ridiculing the Torah (giluy panim b’Torah) and it embarrasses talmidei chachamim.

Such people [who adhere to this philosophy] are counted amongst those who don’t have a portion in the World to Come and are disqualified from bearing witness.”

Rabbi Mendel Goldberg

http://www.5tjt.com/pdfs/20070216_Issue.pdf

amolam Posted - 26 February 2007 18:42

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Let's see more from Rav Elchanan, quoted from Ikvisa D'Meshicha:

"In our time the Torah has been dishonored. People come to the Torah only regarding questions like saying Kaddish.

In political matters affecting the whole people reliance isn't placed on the Torah rather the politicians and writers. These are the leaders of this generation whose Torah reads let us be like the nations of the world. They Dispise G-d's Torah."

ENFORCER / 02.25.07 - 2:12 pm / #

DAAS TORAH-----infallible? 3

mr.jew Posted - 20 March 2001 23:42

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my Rebbe always tells me to listen to the Gedolim but when my mother asked a Godol about which school she told me he said to do something which I know was to smart. I know myself better than anybody. They are human too, are they not?

MODERATOR Posted - 21 March 2001 0:00

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Of course they are human. But when they give advice - and I repeat: advice, not a psak, not a Hashkafa, etc. - then you are correct, that you ultimately know yourself better than anyone else. A Godol, even the greatest, can only base a suggestion on information he is provided with. But if you know that the information that the Godol used is faulty, if he is misinformed, under informed, or mislead, then his suggestion will not work.

So if the Godol is not aware of something about you or about the school he recommended, it is definitely possible that you are correct, and the suggestion is not designed for the reality of who you are.

Bear in mind that in such a case, the Godol himself is not commanding or demanding that you follow his advice, but rather that you consider it wisely when you make your own independent decision. Therefore, if you end up not following his suggestion, you are not "going against" the Godol, since he himself never intended anything except your considering it, which you did. As opposed to when he tells you a psak or a Hashkafa, he is saying "This is the correct way to think", which is different.

You can find a source for this in the Ruach Chaim of Rav Chaim Volozhiner ZTL on the Mishna in Avos, "Marbeh atzah marbeh sevunah". He says that when seeking advice, you should ask numerous people, collect all the different opinions, and then use their collective wisdom to make a decision for yourself, since you ultimately know your situation better than anybody, but others are perhaps wiser than you, so if combine their wisdom and apply it to your self-knowledge, you will have good advice.

Also, in your particular case, I do not know who gave you the advice, so I do not know whether I would agree or disagree with your mother as to whether the advisor is a "Godol" in the first place. Different people have different views on who is and isn't a Godol.

M.J. Posted - 23 March 2001 20:07

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Doesn't it say that even if a Rav tells you your right hand is your left and your left your right, you have to listen to them anyway, for it is on there cheshbon now?

MODERATOR Posted - 23 March 2001 20:12

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1) That is talking about the Sanhedrin Hagadol, not everyone with Smicha.

2) That does not apply to advice, but rather to Halachic rulings.

3) Even regarding Halachic rulings, if the rabbi turns out to have been mistaken, there is a disagreement in the Poskim about your status. Some hold that as long as you honestly believed the rabbi regarding the Halachah, you are a shogeg (non-purposeful sinner), and others hold that unless the rabbi was one of the "established poskim" (baalei horaah muvhakim), you are considered a "mazid", a purposeful sinner, since you should have asked a bigger rabbi.

DAAS TORAH-----infallible? 2

The problem is simply that people have no idea what Emunas Chachamim is, what Daas Torah is, what the role of a Godol is, what a Psak Din means, etc.

We have battle cries and clichés and sound bites but the average sound biter has no clue what it is exactly that he or she is saying.

The equation is simple: If simple and fundamental issues, such as why we believe in our religion, why Hashem cares if we are frum, and things like that are so unknown to the public, that they have to hire outside organizations such as Project Chazon to come in to our Yeshivas and Bais Yaakovs and teach it - and there are only a handful of people who indeed can teach it - then more complex and advanced issues such as the role, authority and scope of a Psak of Gedolei Yisroel are surely not properly understood.

This issue is not limited to just this topic: outside organizations are called in to schools when r"l tragedies occur and the students - and teachers! - have trouble dealing with it from a Hashkafa point of view. The issue is not rocket science - they do not have to hire the Rambam to do this job; merely people who, because it is their job, make it their business to educate themselves in this Hashkafa.

And I tell you, what I tell so many people who ask me what to say or how to react when things like this, or when physical tragedies, or other rattling experiences happen:

Don't wait for the problems to happen before you start learning what the Torah has to say about the matter. By then, if it is not too late, its late enough - emotions and negiyusin and personal interests arise, and it becomes the worst time for objectivity and education.

Teaching people how to deal after something like this happens constitutes damage control. The proper way to do it is to know how to react form the beginning so that when this happens nobody will be traumatized or disillusioned.

Here's what I have told numerous people, including one Rosh Yeshiva, who told me they were disillusioned because of this whole shaitel mess:

You can't be disillusioned unless you were under illusions to begin with. So the way to prevent yourself from being disillusioned is to make sure you are not "illusioned" in the first place.

Rabbeinu Tam writes in Sefer Hayashar that you should prepare for tragedy in your life by learning how to react to it before it happens, so that by the time it strikes r"l, you will be prepared.

Rabbeinu Tam's context is life tragedies r"l, but the concept is true regarding all traumatic experiences, including disillusionment with Torah authority. Again: You can’t be disillusioned if you had no illusions to begin with.

But unfortunately, the hamon am, due to their lack of proper Torah knowledge, is not prepared for things like this (not that a godol getting tricked is anything to be flustered about).

The solution to this problem is simply for people to learn Torah: Barasi Yetzer Horah barasi Torah tavlin. Often, that dictum works on a mystical level; here, however, it is a simple issue of knowing the proper Torah Hashkafa so that the Yetzer Horah cannot trick you into thinking that something unnerving has happened.


I know this may seem too obvious, but we still have the highest respect for Yitzchak Avinu, though he made a mistake about Esav, and tried to act upon it.

Our gedolim are entitled to be misinformed through other people, without losing their status as tzaddikim and Torah authorities.

Yaakov Avinu, also, did not know the truth about Yosef for a long time. And Elisha Hanavi said about the son of the Shunamis, "Hashem He'elim Mimeni," "Hashem hid it from me."

Posted - 10 June 2004 11:52



Your examples with Yitzchok and Yaakov are right on the mark.

And the example of Elisha was used by the Ben Ish Chai and the Satmar Rav to prove that Gedolim can indeed be misinformed - I quoted them both above.

I just wish that people would internalize what they learn in school and apply these lessons in real life.


ArtScroll is not the issue here. This issue is not infallibility, for nobody "fell."

This issue, does not touch upon sages missing a Gemora - a "neelam mimenu".

Here we are talking about simple physical facts that the Gedolim themselves:

(a) don’t even claim are necessarily true, as opposed to a psak where they hold the halachah to be as they see it, so nobody is being chozer from anything really - remember our focus: the spoon was really milchig! That’s not a chazara form a teshuva. Its a chazara from a shailah, and the Godol wasn’t the one who made the shailah,

(b) if were to ask these people, "DO you believe that Yitzchok avinu was fooled into thinking that Esav was someone he really wasn’t?" they would say "Of course, every school kid knows that"

and "Do you believe that Elisha the prophet did not know the facts about the shumanis's son?" they will say, "Of course! We all believe that! It’s in the Navi!"

- so now if you ask them "Do you believe that Rav Elyashev was presented a shailah with the wrong facts?" they will say "No! Emunas chachamim!"

The issue is not that people think Gedolmi are infallible. They don’t think so - they admit it. The issue here is that they don’t think at all!

It’s an emotional-psychological for them. It's "safe" for them to say that Yitzchok avinu or yaakov avinu or Elisha were uninformed, because that doesn’t make them vulnerable.

But when you tell them that a Godol of their generation was uninformed, they feel unsafe, vulnerable to tricksters who can present things to Gedolim in manners other than reality, and so how do they know when they follow what is reported in the Yated in the name of Godol so-and-so, that that is really what the godol thinks?

In other words, if we cant blindly rely on Gedolim being private investigators and one-man FBI forces who are omniscient regarding all the things that they are being told, then perhaps many of the things we are hearing from Gedolim are not really what those Gedolim hold, or would hold, if they would be properly informed?

Well, welcome to the world of Pnei Hador kepenei hakelev - it means, in short, that the people will be fooling and manipulating Gedolim like this - you can call it "godol abuse" if you want - and it does happen.

And Chazal say it is a major symptom of Ikvesa d'meshicha.

I’m not saying it happens all the time or even every day, or even that you have to suspect everything you hear form a Godol. Of course you don’t. The onus is on the one who says that someone - anyone - lied. BUT - if you happen to KNOW that a Godol was given the wrong facts, then there is nothing at all to freak out about. It happens.

And our poskim - as I quoted above form the Ben Ish Chai - say that it happens. And if they say so, I think we should have real emunas chachamim and believe them.