ZIONISM-----eilu v'eilu? 3 (updated 1/14/08)

FlippedOutFish Posted - 02 January 2008 9:09

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The Mod has quoted the Pardes article repeatedly about Rabbi Wasserman, Rabbi Kotler, Rabbi Rottenberg from Antwerp, and rabbis from Czechoslovakia and Hungary were unanimous in rejecting any proposal for a "Jewish State". Accepted

But how do you explain the view of the other Rabbanim as stated:

"Admo"rim from Boyan and Sadigora, Rav Tzirelson (the president of the [Agudath Israel] congress), Rav Levin from Reisha (the head of Agudath Israel), and Rav Sorotzkin, [who said that] it is possible to agree, according to the laws of the Torah, to the establishment of a Jewish state in its portion of the land of Israel without denying the belief in the coming of the redeemer."

Can you please explain?

MODERATOR Posted - 02 January 2008 9:20

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I already did, elsewhere. Of course there were rabbis, especially in those days, who held like that (the Telzers changed their position radically BH - they used to even celebrate Yom haatzmaut!), but as I said, the Gedolei HaDor - the greatest of the generation who Klall Yisroel collectively relies on for guidance - were on one side. The Brisker Rav, Chazon Ish, Rav Ahron Kotler and Rav Chaim Ozer and those in that category were all unanimous. They did not consider the other side even a legitimate shitah - so why should we?

In fact, Rav Ahron and Rav Elchonon wanted to walk out of that meeting in protest! But Rav Chaim Ozer, who they contacted for advice, told them to stay and Elchonon wanted to walk out of that meeting in protest, but Rav Chaim Ozer, who they contacted for advice, told them to stay and voice their side.

Rav Tzirelson, the Sadigerer Rebbe et al were legitimate people, but our job is to follow the Gedolei HaDor, who did not even consider the opinion of those rabbis as even a legitimate opposing view. If there was any single person in that side who was as great as a Rav Ahron a Brisker Rav a Chazon Ish a Rav Chaim Ozer, or others, you could have a question, but of course there was not.

If the great Gedolei HaDor considered that opinion simply an error and not worth even being part of the discussion, then we should not either.

This issue is not an easy one even for Talmidei Chachamim. It took the greatest of the generation - thank G-d Hashem sent us such great leaders - to point out the terrible mistake in Zionism, religious or otherwise. It’s not like you can look it up in the Mishna Brura - it involves a deep and broad understanding of Halachah and Agada. Boruch Hashem the Gedolei HaDor were on the same page with this.

FlippedOutFish Posted - 08 January 2008 18:51

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One can always see glimpse and pieces from various books but that’s not clear enough. For if you show that to a religious Zionist or anyone affiliated they will say "there is always another side" Eilu Veilu divrei elokim emet. There needs to be something that will include all opinions quotes, statements Hashkafos and torahs of all Gedolei Yisroel.

2. I don’t know the status on the frumteens book it doesn’t look like anything is coming out soon and it will be just one issue in the book. That is not good enough because people will jus argue.

3. The other point is not true that people who will want to read this will know how to read reg seforim anyway. There are thousands of people who can be so extreme on Zionism and can read Rishonim or Achronim correctly. Also, it would be much easier in even for people in America who know how to read seforim already anyway. In this way in English the statements will be clear and there will be no confusion. This way people will have free access to read it for themselves and determine their opinions. It will be much easier to show people why they are wrong instead of just saying look at this site jewsagainstzionism or frumteens. A book like this will be Mekarev thousands of people even views of some Rabbanim and make a huge impact on the world of the Jews.-Because right now literally thousands upon thousands of people believe how Zionism is the fundamental belief in Judaism and it’s not their fault that’s what they are being told that’s what they are learning.

I would actually say the exact opposite of you’re point that the people who would be interested already know how to read seforim. I would say fakert that the people who know how to read seforim could care less about this issue since they already have a Rebbi and know how to learn and find the right Hashkafa to them it will be Bitul torah and politics for a typical yeshiva bochur. But for the people who don’t know how to read seforim like most of the Jews in America will be dying to get a book like this for this is a fundamental belief they are being fed as the exact truth.

In any event its pretty sad how there could be a English sefer lets say "pro-Israel" for argument sake the book "Eim Habanim Semeicha"-can be translated in English and be sold at every seforim/judaica store in America but Vayoel Moshe/Efes Biltecha Goaleinu can not be translated at all!

Not just any book but there is any English koveitz or pamphlet or article just showing some of the statements of our Gedolim. People are so blinded out there and no one or Rav can make something against it. Are they afraid that people will not hold of them are they afraid of political pressure? To the point were they must conceal truth?

Why does Hashem conceal the truth from the eyes of thousands of Yidden and allow English Zionist books or articles to be distributed?

Can someone find anything please anyone or Moderator come out with a little kovietz or pamphlet or article in English to reveal things people were so blinded into following?
"makom Sheein anashim Hishtadel Liyihot ish"-In a place where there is no man, strive to be that man."
Is anyone willing to help half of klall Yisroel?

MODERATOR Posted - 13 January 2008 13:10

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Our goal is not to convince religious Zionists that they are wrong. If they don’t realize that already, they are either in denial (as the Chazon Ish said about them) or they are blindly following their "leaders", and blindness is not dispelled through light.

There is enough of the truth out there, and in fact, from the laughable quality of the Zionist apologetics it should be obvious to them that there is nothing to say in their defense. If this were any other shaila - hilchos tefillin or shabbos for example - they would never rely on the unintelligible defenses of smaller rabbis against the Gedolei Yisroel's clear and obvious proofs. Nor would they say "there are other opinions." The consensus of the Gedolei Yisroel is clear, as is the consensus that there is no legitimate basis for the other side, any more than there is for worshipping the egel.
We live, again, in the times of Korach, the egel, Yeravam ben Neva. The gedolim then the greatest ones - had one opinion and people followed the wrong side not because of lack of ability to see who was right but because of lack of desire to see who is right.

Yet then, there were much much better reasons to be on the wrong side,. Much better. Shabse Tzvi performed real miracles and was a real Torah giant. Nothing compared to the defenses presented by the religious Zionists of today, which include simple forgeries, fraud, and Torah so clearly wrong, that clearly, logic and proofs and reasoning will not sway them

A bit of light dispels much darkness, but even a lot of light cannot dispel blindness.

And that’s what the Chazon Ish said - Zionist know deep down they are wrong - like the Tzedukim of old - they just don’t want to admit it.

Our job is to teach people the truth, and even to prove it to them. That has been done. If there are people who will not be convinced even though they have been proven wrong, we should go back to our Gemoras and finish another sugya. Our energies are better spent that way than on banging our heads against the wall.

ZIONISM / ANTI-----as simple as bosor vcholov

AmIsraelChai Posted - 25 December 2006 18:33

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Kevod Harav.
Is it not true that many great rabbis of our time including Rabbi Ovadia Yosef and the recent Lubavitcher Rabbi that past away were all very pro Israel?

MODERATOR Posted - 25 December 2006 19:03

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Well, you’re definitely not a Lubavitcher or else you'd know that the Lubavitcher Rebbe was quite anti-Zionist. He once actually said that he would feel obligated to take up the fight against the Zionists except for the fact that the Satmar Rebbe has done so already.

However, the Lubavitcher Rebbe did not publicize his anti-Zionism, and that is the single biggest complaint that the Satmar Rebbe had against him (or maybe there were others just as big - it’s hard to know exactly) - that he sold out his grandparents' Hashkofos because they weren’t popular. So while he still "officially" was anti-Zionist (which is why you will never ever see an Israeli flag or a Yom Haatzmaut celebration in Lubavitch), he kind of hid this fact and didn’t really mention the topic in public.

As far as Rav Ovadiah, you should not follow that position regardless, since Rav Ovadiah and those like him are a small, miniscule minority among the big talmidei chachamim, and although Rav Ovadiah is a world-class baki in Torah literature, he is not nearly a Godol Hador in the league of the Brisker Rav, Chazon Ish, Rav Ahron Kotler, Satmar Rebbe, Rav Chaim Ozer, Chofetz Chaim, and others of that sort who were much greater than he and declared Zionism not only to be wrong, but they said to disregard the opinions of those rabbis who are for it.

So if there were Rabbanim who were Gedolei Hador, like those above, who were Zionist, we could have a discussion. But there weren’t. There is no comparison.

But the truth is, your question is stronger than you realize. Because Zionism is Halachicly such a farce, that it's a wonder that any Talmid Chacham, even if they are not the greatest Gedolim of the generation, could fall for it. And this question was once asked to the Brisker Rav ZTL.

"How is it that some intelligent and upstanding people should be involved in such a stupidity that causes such destruction of Judaism as Zionism?"

He answered:

"In Koheles it says, 'Dead flies putrefy perfumed oil, and small amount of stupidity overshadows wisdom and honor'. Meaning, just as the perfumer's oil which is mixed in with spices that gives it an aroma which is very beautiful, nevertheless if you throw into it some dead flies, the perfume will become putrid because of them. So too is wisdom and honor - if you throw into it just a little stupidity, the stupidity will putrefy all the wisdom and overpower it.

"So, too," said the Brisker Rav, "it is with those people in whom even just bit of Zionism has entered, the small amount of stupidity with outweigh and overpower their wisdom, and cause them to do things that are just the opposite of wise." ("Harav MiBrisk", Vol 3, p.326)

I would like to add a source to that form the Gemora: shaani minus, d'mashcha!

All that having been said, you should know that both the Lubavitcher Rebbe and Rav Ovadiah are much more controversial than you seem to realize.

As for the Lubavitcher Rebbe, you can see the Lubavitch forum to see why the Gedolei Yisroel such as Rav Shach ZTL did not consider him a "great rabbi".

And Rav Ovadiah, although everyone agrees has a great encyclopedic knowledge of Torah, is not considered at all an authority such that we should abandon what our Gedolim said because of his position. He just isn’t in that league.

MODERATOR Posted - 25 December 2006 19:56

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More on the above:

The issue of Zionism really is clear-cut simple. The case against is so black and white, and the case for, so impotent to the point of being impossible to take seriously, that there really does need an explanation as to how any intelligent person can believe in it. One such answer is that of the Brisker Rav, above, that sheer and utter stupidity does have the ability to putrefy one's intelligence.

Here's another answer, courtesy of the Chazon Ish:

In the days of the Chazon Ish's father, there was a certain rabbi who became a Zionist, and was planning on going to the Zionist Congress. When the Chazon Ish's father, who was the Rav of the town, heard about this, he told this rabbi not to go, and he even made him swear an oath that he would not go to the Zionist Congress. Eventually the Zionist rabbi realized his mistake and he gave up Zionism and became a Yorei Shamayim.

They asked the Chazon Ish why such a person would honor his oath not to participate in Zionist undertakings - since, according to him, he believes that participating in the Zionist congress is a Mitzvah for the sake of Yishuv Eretz Yisroel, and so taking an oath that prevents him form participating would constitute an oath to prevent himself from doing a Mitzvah, which is invalid?

The Chazon Ish answered, the Mishna says (Yoma 1:5) that they made the Koehn Gadol swear that he would not follow the Tzedukim. The Pri Chadash asks why would such an oath mean anything - if the man is a Tzeduki, he holds their ways are a Mitzvah, and the oath would be invalid since it would prevent him from doing a Mitzvah.

The answer, said the Chazon Ish, is that the sinner, i.e. the tzeduki, is not a man with an opinion that tzadukiism is correct. Rather, he is simply following his Yetzer Horah to do bad, but deep down, he knows he's wrong. therefore, making an oath will stop him.

So too with the Zionists, said the Chazon Ish - even though the Yetzer Horah seduces them by telling him it is connected to the Mitzvah of Yishuv Eretz Yisroel, and other nice words, but in the depths of their hearts, they know the truth, that Zionism is Kefirah and meenus and it is a deviation from the Torah's way, and they know that such an oath (against Zionism) is not against the Torah, but rather a real legitimate oath. (Orchos Rabeinu vol.4 p.189)

So, in other words, Zionism is not really an intellectual position, but rather an intellectual rationalization for being a Zionist.

It's the Yetzer Horah fooling a person, and deep down he knows its nonsense, but the taavah and yetzer have the ability to cloud a person’s judgment - at least on the surface.

Of course, the taavah for Zionism is nationalism - everybody wants to be "a people" with their own country and their own identity, and also, as the Zionists themselves said, Zionism allows the "normalization" of the Jewish nation - we're no different than the Spanish, Italians and Greeks - now we're "normal" because we aren’t wandering like gypsies all over the world in ghettos and things like that. (afra l'pumaihu!)

It is this taavah that causes a person to rationalize. But deep down he knows that Zionism makes no sense.

It's like the posuk says - shochad yaavir ainei pikchim - bribery blinds the eyes of the wise. And, adds the Mesilas Yeshorim, the greatest bribery is the pull of the Yetzer Horah.

So it's not question anymore how wise men can be Zionists. Even though objectively, it makes no sense, but Zionism is not an objective position - it's the result of giving in to the temptation of the Yetzer, of taking bribery, which, as the posuk says, blinds the eyes of even the wise.

MODERATOR Posted - 25 December 2006 20:04

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If you look at the source of the Brisker Rav's statement that I just posted, you’ll see on the same page a cute story about the Brisker Rav's father, Rav Chaim, regarding how simple it is that Zionism is wrong.

Rav Chaim ZTL was accustomed not to pasken shailos. He left that to the Dayan of Brisk. Of course, Rav Chaim was more than qualified, but he had his reasons.

One day, some ignorant fellow came up to Rav Chaim, who was vehemently anti-Zionist, and complained.

"Why is it," he said, "that you who refuse even to pasken simple shailos of basar bechalav, feel comfortable paskening such complex shailos like this one (i.e. about Zionism), which is so complex, so many people are so confused about it?!"

"On the contrary" said Rav Chaim, "if you see that even I, who would not pasken a shailah about basar bechalav, and paskening against Zionism, you see that it is even a simpler shailah than one about basar b'cholov!"

Tortured_Soul Posted - 26 December 2006 18:32

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R' Mod,

Just above you wrote

"As far as Rav Ovadiah, yes, he is a Zionist rabbi, ..."

yet, elsewhere, much earlier, a moderator had written that while R' Ovadiah was at one point Zionist, he later retracted this and even wrote a teshuva in which he cited the 3 Shavuos and referred the reader to VaYoel Moshe for more on the topic.

MODERATOR Posted - 26 December 2006 18:35

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I didn’t say that he wasn’t Zionist, I said that he stated that the Oaths are Halachicly binding.

In context, some Zionist rabbi had written, I think it was regarding land for peace, that the Oaths had "expired" according to Rav Chaim Vital.

The Satmar Rebbe exposes that Zionist myth as a hoax in Vayoel Moshe, showing that it is based on a distortion and misunderstanding (a little of both) of Rav Chaim Vital.

Rav Ovadiah points that out to the aforementioned Zionist rabbi.

This was in an article in a Zionist journal called Techumin, which I quoted elsewhere.