SCHAR V'ONESH-----the purpose of onesh

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gavreelah Posted - 25 April 2001 20:49

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so basically anyone who has caused genocide or sinned without remorse over and over just "evaporate" in the after life, do they get a second chance? Or do they loose their souls, where do people such as Hitler go, if there is no hell

MODERATOR Posted - 25 April 2001 20:52

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Sure there is a "hell." Evil people go there.

If someone is worthy, he does get "another chance" by returning in a Gilgul - reincarnation. But getting reincarnated is terribly painful for the soul - maybe more so, even, than hell. This is because this world is an unnatural place for a soul - it belongs with G-d in His world.

Some evil people spend eternity in oblivion after they roast for a long time in hell. Oblivion is also painful for the soul, since these souls remain forever separate from Hashem.

ptgard2281 Posted - 26 April 2001 18:36

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Does a person/soul remember if they lived in another life?

MODERATOR Posted - 26 April 2001 18:37

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As a rule, no. Great Tzadikim, however, Baalei Ruach haKodesh, have been able to discern their own past lives, as well as those of others. Rav Chaim Vital's "Sefer HaGilgulim" is the most classic example of this.

nu nu Posted - 18 June 2001 18:31

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The moderator wrote:

Some evil people spend eternity in oblivion after they roast for a long time in hell. Oblivion is also painful for the soul, since these souls remain forever separate from Hashem.

My Rebbi said that someone who is a rasha gamur is subject to immediate oblivion
as soon as they die; they don't suffer in "hell" first. That would be pointless, since
gehenom is only to purify a neshama, if the person isn't going to get any schar; Hashem never wants to subject someone to pain with no tachlis, so the rasha simply ceases to exist. Why should he "roast for a long time in hell"?

MODERATOR Posted - 21 June 2001 17:12

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The Gemora (Rosh Hashanah 17a) says that evil doers (Posh'im b'gufan) first burn in Gehinom and then their bodies are undone and their souls get burnt up.

The reason is because Gehinom is not merely a purification process but a punishment as well. They go to Gehinom because they deserve it.

nu nu Posted - 02 July 2001 22:11

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So what if they deserve it? Hashem created the world to do good to people (which of course they didn't intrinsically deserve).

These people managed to live their lives such that Hashem could not give them any good, so they must be destroyed.

Where does the concept of punishment come in? The only thing it seems to accomplish is to make us feel better to say "such-and-such a rasha is still down there burning", because it is a difficult thing to conceptualize that oblivion is the worst possible thing someone could suffer, so it seems more right to us to say that they are burning.

My Rebbi discussed these things in a Shiur on derech hashem, some guys brought gemaras like that one in rosh hashana, and some similar ones about bilaam.

He said they are a pela and he doesn't it understand them that way.

Before you say that he is krum, I should mention he is a Talmid of an Adam Gadol here in e"y and has been studying at the mir and lakewood for the past 20 or 30 years.

btw: shouldn't we apply the concept of kim lei mderaba minei?

MODERATOR Posted - 02 July 2001 22:54

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The Sefer haIkarim III:32 explains that the purpose of punishment is to help motivate people not to sin - through Yiras HaOnesh.

The punishment helps people beat their Yetzer Horah and NOT sin, which means that the punishment is there in order to do good in the world.

But this system will only work if someone who refuses to avoid the sin will indeed get punished.

The purpose of Onesh is to prevent sins through Yiras haOnesh. But you can't have Yiras HaOnesh without the Onesh.

So the purpose of punishment is for the good, but if someone willingly violates the purpose, and forces the pain upon himself, then that is his own doing.

If people would get away with doing bad, that would encourage people to do bad. And that's bad.

(Compare Bais Yosef CM 71:7, that the purpose of threatening thieves is not to hurt the thief but to get him to return the stolen object so that he will not get hurt.)

Regarding the Gemora, I don't see what the "peleh" is, nor do I see that the Meforshim had any problem understanding it k'pshuto, like your classmates. Is there any other way to understand the gemora?

nu nu Posted - 25 July 2001 23:12

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bs'd

But you can't have Yiras HaOnesh without the Onesh.

the point is that oblivion is the worst possible Onesh.

Regarding the Gemora, I don't see what the "peleh" is, nor do I see that the Meforshim had any problem understanding it k'pshuto, like your classmates. Is there any other way to understand the gemora?

Apparently there is, because my Rebbi understands it differently.

MODERATOR Posted - 25 July 2001 23:15

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I don't know that oblivion is the worst Onesh - I would say eternal pain is worse. But that doesn't matter. The reason Onesh exists - oblivion or otherwise - is in order to generate Yiras HaOnesh. And since without Onesh people would be doing more sins, Onesh is justified since it, too, causes good in the world, namely, Yiras HaOnesh.

Therefore, there is no need to explain the Gemora any differently than it is understood by the Rishonim (see Ramban in Toras HaAdam, Shaar HaGemul), or your classmates.

How else can the gemora be explained?

SCHAR V'ONESH-----tzadik vs baal teshuva

You’re incorrect about the Tzadik. What you are assuming seems to be a mistaken perception of something written in the Tanya.

First, regarding being a Tzadik, the Rambam (Teshuva 5:2) writes:

"Do not allow it to cross your mind, this that the idiots among the Goyim and most dummies among the Jews think - that G-d decrees from a person's creation if he will be a Tzadik or Rasha. This is not so. Rather, anybody can be a Tzadik like unto Moshe Rabbeinu or a Rasha like unto Yeravam [ben Nevat]...there is nobody that forces him, nobody that decrees on him, and nobody that pulls him in one way or the other. Rather, he on his own, willingly goes in which ever direction he chooses."

To be sure, there are people who are born on higher levels than others, and people born with different level "missions", and even "tzadikim" who above and beyond the generation that they are born in, but are specifically "displaced" from their appropriate generation as an emergency measure in order to save the generation that they are displaced into. All this and more it says in many places. However, every single one of these Tzadikim still have full fledged bechirah - free will - and nisyonos that they need to pass. They can still fail their nisyonos like anyone else, although their nisyonos may be on a much higher level.

As a simple example, a frum-from-birth, average chareidi Jew living in an average chareidi neighborhood may not have a nisayon to go into McDonalds and buy a cheeseburger. But a Jew who is becoming a baal teshuva and struggling with his frumkeit may indeed have such a yetzer horah.

Still, (a) the FFB still has free will to go into McDonalds and eat the cheeseburger if he chooses (a Malach would not be able to do that), and (b) the FFB will have other nisyonos that entail on his part the same amount of effort that the on-the-way Jew needs to employ in resisting the cheeseburger. Those nisyonos may include not missing zman krias shema, for argument's sake, or not talking about business on Shabbos, or not cheating in business.

The amount of reward you receive - and the level of "Tzadik" you are according to the Rambam - depends on how you respond to your own nisyonos, how much effort you put into them and how hard you try. The reward you get does NOT depend on how successful you are - for in the end the Jew out of Russia may succeed at being a bigger Tzadik than the Chareidi-born Jew, because he put in greater effort and passed his nisyonos better.

Your "level" depends on how you respond to nisyonos. Its like 2 people lifting weights. One person may lift 400 pounds, and the other 200 pounds, and still another 65 pounds. But if each of them puts in the same amount of effort into their lift, then their muscles will show an equal amount of gain. And even though the 400 pound guy lifts more, if he doesn’t put in the same amount of effort as the 65 pound guy, he will not see as much progress. And if its easy for him to lift the 400 pounds, he will gain nothing by lifting.

So too Hashem looks at the amount of effort we put in to something, and that determines how much of a Tzadik we are.

So someone can be "born" a tzadik and still be obliged to put in his greatest effort to go even higher - and if he doesn’t put in that effort, if he fails in his nisyonos - then he may not be doing many aveiros, and his aveiros may not be as sever as those of the average Joe, but he is less of a "tzadik" than someone who puts in more effort. He may be a greater Talmid Chacham, and in many ways he may have a higher status, but as far as his being a Tzadik goes, meaning, his own personal merit, he is not as great.

The lesser Tzadik may even accomplish more for Klall Yisroel than the first one - maybe he will give lots of charity, pasken lots of shailos, teach many talmidim, and even save klall yisroel. But he will still receive less reward, if all that was easier for him than keeping shabbos is for his neighbor. To receive the same amount of reward, you have to put in the same amount of effort. And no matter how great you are, the opportunity to make yourself even greater is there.

In the back of one of the volumes of "A Thought For The Week" (a collection of Torahs from the Lubavitcher Rebbe) there is a story something to the effect of the Lubavitcher Rebbe refusing to accept a brachah from a Tzadik because the brachah was for him to go higher spiritually, and he wanted to do that by his own efforts, not through a brachah. It says that later, he regretted not taking the Brachah because he realized that he could have reached whatever level the Brachah would have taken him to, and from there exerted his own efforts to go even higher.

He was correct in his regret. No matter what level we are gifted with, we can still always go higher.

Please bear in mind also, that the word "tzadik" is used in many places in different ways. Here I am talking about a Tzadik in terms of a person's reward for his actions.

What it says in the Tanya about a Tzadik not having a Yetzer Horah, such as Dovid Hamelech ("libi cholol b'kirbi"), is referring to someone like Dovid who obliterated his Yetzer Horah through hard work, and therefore, the easiness with which he subsequently resists sin is considered as if he did it by his own free will, since his inability to be tempted by Olam Hazeh was his own doing. It does not mean that some people are born without the ability to sin. They have to work to reach that level, then they get credit for it.

Chazal say many times that a person can change his Yetzer Horah to a Yetzer Tov, or destroy his Yetzer Horah, and that is what happened with such greats as Avrohom Avinu and Dovid Hamelech.

As far as which is better: "Afshi" or "i afshi", there are seemingly conflicting statements in Chazal about this, that are reconciled in several different ways.

Some say it is simply a Machlokes. The Rambam says that regarding certain sins it is definitely better if you are not interested in them, such as stealing and other "logical" sins. In such cases, a person who understands that stealing is wrong and therefore has no desire to do it is on a higher level than someone who wants to steal but controls himself.

Others say that it depends at what point in your "spiritual career" you are at. To be born without a temptation for something is NOT as great as having and resisting that temptation. But if you obliterated your temptation and no longer have it, you are then greater than someone who still has it but resists. Eventually, the person who manages to becomes a "tazdik", in the Tanya's sense, is higher, but only because he did it through his own efforts.

The Rambam, please note, is not arguing with that. The Rambam is merely saying that a person can intellectually bring himself to a level of understanding where he will no longer have certain temptations. If a person understands, for instance, that G-d gave you what he wants you to have, and if you don’t have it then its not good for you, he will no longer be tempted to steal, nor will he be jealous. If a person understands that everything that someone else does to him was decreed by G-d then he will understand the revenge is silly. So the Rambam is saying that if a person is on that level of understanding where he "intellectualizes away" his Yezter Horah for something, he is on a higher level than someone who does not have that understanding, and needs to resist temptation. This would be because the "thinker" has obliterated this Yetzer Horah on his own, and thus gets credit for not following it.

Re: "b'makom she'baalei teshuva omdim", the Rambam does indeed say that the reason is because he has to resist temptation more than someone who is not habituated into doing the sin.

SCHAR V'ONESH-----yesh misah b'lo chet?

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I don’t know what gemara you’re quoting, but the Gemara Shabbos 55b says "Shma Minei: Yesh Misah B'Lo Chet, V'Yesh Yissurin B'Lo Avon"

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The Meforshim ask your question. Other places in Chazal it says the opposite (Medrash Rabbah Vayikra 37 and more). The Rambam in Moreh Nevuchim (III:24) and in his letter to Marsailles writes that we all believe Ain Misah Blo Chet etc. Here are some answers:

The Maharal (Ch. Agados Shabbos) says that for sure only a sin can cause death. Moshe and Aharon died because of the sins of others. That's what Yesh Misah b'lo chet means. But someone had to have sinned.

The Yaaros Dvash (II:16) explains that there definitely has to be a sin to cause death, and the Gemora in Shabbos merely means that the sin does not have to come because of the intrinsically sinful part of a person, but can rather come because of the "outside snake" that causes people to sin since Adam Harishon did his chet.

The Shelah (Taanis, Drasha for Churban Habayis) also writes that there has to be sin to cause death, and the Gemora in Shabbos means merely that death can also be caused by those small sins that it is basically impossible to avoid.

The Shaarei Haleshem (I:3) points out that the Zohar says explicitly that everyone dies because of a sin with the exception of those explicitly stated who died because of the Nachash. He also says that according to the Arizal, even "B'atav shel nachas" means a sin as well, just of a different type.

EMUNAH & BITACHON-----attributing tzaros to sins

I found this on a blog, and I thought it was a really good thing that we should all keep in mind.

This week, many different rabbis were trying to posit what poor behaviors of Israel and the Jewish people was the "reason" for the current war. Was it the "Gay Parade" scheduled to march in Jerusalem? Was it the lack of modestly dressed people? Previous Chief Rabbi of Israel, Rav Mordechai Eliyahu was asked this exact question this past week -- and he angrily answered as follows:

I suggest that instead of people trying to accuse the Jewish people...and being prosecutors against them...they should adopt the opposite strategy, and be advocates of the Jewish people. Look at the tremendous outpouring of love and concern for the Jews of Northern Israel...what a wonderful people the Jewish nation can be.

If this rabbi really said such a thing I do not know, but it is a horrible mistake and completely against the Torah, besides being an error in logic.

The Churban Bayis was attributed to Sinas Chinam. Would this rabbi say that Chazal were wrong and better we should find the good in the Jews who lived during the Churban? Were Chazal then "accusing the Jewish people?"

As the Chavas Daas writes in the introduction to his commentary on Eichah, there is no point whatsoever to recount tragedies unless we at the same time recount the reasons that caused them, i.e. the sins, in order to ensure that we are careful not to allow them to happen once more.

Throughout history, whenever calamity befell Klall Yisroel, we held it obligatory to access the cause of the suffering, so that we will know what it is within us that needs improvement, and to make sure we know how never to allow that suffering to return.

So the Chasid Yaavetz wrote a sefer, Ohr HaChaim, analyzing the sins that caused the Inquisition. He did not refrain because of "accusing" Klall Yisroel.

Rav Elchonon Wasserman ZTL analyzes the sins that caused Hitler's coming, as well as our suffering during the blood libels in Europe.

Rav Chaim Ozer Grodzinsky ZT”L, in the introduction to Achiezer analyses the sins that caused our suffering during World War I.

The words of the Rambam should suffice here:

"The Torah commands that horns be blown to waken the congregation whenever the Land is hit by tragedy, be it war, epidemic, or drought. These sounds are a call to repentance and a reminder that suffering is a product of sin. For people to interpret such problems as merely coincidental is cruel, because this will repent the nation from changing its ways and cause them to continue the corrupt behaviors that caused the suffering to happen to them in the first place"

When a tsunami strikes, it is wise to determine why, so that we may prevent it from happening again. Same thing for all things - small or large - that you don’t want to happen. So if suffering takes place we want to prevent it. The smart and kind thing to do is to identify the cause and fix it.

Now if this rabbi said that he doesn’t believe this is the cause, or that he doesn’t think we can identify the cause altogether, that would be a different discussion. But he did not say that. He allegedly said that instead of identifying the cause of the problem so that we can fix it, we should talk about what wonderful people we can be.

Oi. This is like someone who sees an epidemic in his community but instead of warning people why it happened so that it should not happen again, he decides "why talk about the bad that people do? Let’s talk about how they take care of their health!".

That is not being an accuser. Accusation only applies before the verdict is given. After the suffering hits, that means the verdict has been made and the sentence is being carried out. It's not as if we are deriving the fact that sins were committed because of the suffering we are going through -- rather, whether or not this suffering would be here, we would still be fully aware of these sins. No secret that they made a gay parade. No secret that it is appalling in the eyes of Hashem.

Those are facts, not "accusations."

We are being told be Hashem that we did something wrong and that we should improve. For us to ignore that just invites more suffering rachmana latzlan.

And as the Rambam says, someone who refuses to connect suffering to sin is cruel, and prevents people from avoiding that suffering in the future.

So now we have another, additional cause of suffering, courtesy of the Rambam. Namely, rabbis who try to prevent us from connecting our suffering to our sins.

Repeat disclaimer: I am not aware if this rabbi actually said this, or if he is being misquoted, or what. I am dealing with the issue, regardless of whoever said it.

Also on this topic, see:

http://www.frumteens.com/topic.
php?topic_id=105&forum_id=17&Topic_Title=
Rav+Ovadia%27s+Comment+on+the+Holocaust&forum_title=Punishment

In addition to all of the above, the alleged statement of that rabbi is also a logical fallacy, and intrinsically contradictory. If he would be right, then by his criticizing Jews for assessing the cause of suffering, and saying that what they are doing is wrong, he "accusing" klall yisroel and being a prosecutor against them. Instead of getting angry and publicly accusing Jews of wrongdoing, he should instead look at all the good these people do.

It is absurd to criticize people by saying it is wrong to criticize people.



The difference between this and all the situations the moderator cited is that in those, gedolim took those positions and made those statements, and here, every Yossi Schmoe is stating his own belief. I have not heard one statement from a godol today giving a precise reason for the war. There is a call for teshuva, and we definitely need to do so, but no real da'as Torah is blaming the war on one specific thing. If da'as Torah comes out with such a statement - ok. But who are we to presume that we know what the cheshbon of Hashem?

nechy,

First, Talmidei Chachamim don’t always communicate with Nechy. What a Talmid Chacham says to his Talmidim or anywhere else does not necessarily mean you will hear about it. Usually, you won’t. We are not bound by Nechy's opinions of who is "Joe Shmoe" and who is a Godol.

But more to the point, the statement you quoted did not say that the people talking are not choshuv enough; it said that attributing sins to tragedies is being mekatreg and we should not do it. Such a statement is absolutely wrong.

Q: What should our reaction be when suffering strikes us?

A: If a person sees that suffering is befalling him, he should examine his deeds to see why Hashem is bringing about the suffering, as the Gemora says (Brachos 5a).

The Rambam reiterates this and states (Taanis 1:2,3) that when tragedy befalls us and we do NOT attribute it to sins, it is a great cruelty. Please see my posts above - it's like a doctor seeing a patient with bad lungs and tells him "don’t worry - it has nothing to do with your smoking." By preventing him from knowing the reason for his suffering, you are preventing him from ending the suffering by improving his deeds.

Q: What happens f you examine your deeds and find nothing in them that would make sense out of the suffering that you have endured?

A: The Gemora states if that happens, "You should attribute the suffering to bitul Torah". The simple meaning of the Gemora is that you should assume that the reason you are suffering is for the sin of Bitul Torah. Many Meforshim , including the GRA as well as Chasidishe seforim, interpret the Gemora to mean that the reason you have failed to identify the sin that caused your suffering is because of Bitul Torah. Learn more and you'll find the sin.

Q: What is this principle based on?

A: A posuk. The Gemora derives it from Eichah 3:40 - "nachpsha derocheinu vnachkora, vnashuva el hashem."

Q: What happens if the person is not guilty of Bitul Torah at all, nor could he find any other sin to explain the suffering?

A: In that case, the Gemora says, you should assume the suffering is "yesurim shel ahava." Rashi explains this to mean that Hashem makes someone suffer even if they do not sin in order to give them more reward in the next world. Other Rishonim, such as the Ramban, say that it is not possible for an innocent person to suffer, ever. Yesurim shel ahava, according to him, means that Hashem is punishing for sins that were committed beshogeg.

There are other explanations in Yesurim shel ahava as well.

Q: But how can we know Hashem's motives?

A: We are not identifying Hashem's motive, but rather His message. It's like when your father hits you. He wants you to know why you’re being punished so you shouldn’t do it again. So too, an act of suffering is not an isolate, independent action by Hashem, but rather a direct message to us.

From another angle, though the same idea, is that when Hashem brings punishment He is not acting in a random fashion, but rather facilitating a cause-and-effect reaction to our sins. Just as if r"l a person smokes he can get lung cancer; if he jumps off the roof he can break his leg; of he eats spoiled fish he can get food poisoning - so too certain aveiros bring certain punishments.

And just like a doctor can diagnose the cause of physically induced suffering, so too can we diagnose the cause of spiritually induced suffering. The latter is no more "second guessing" Hashem" than the first.

(to be continued)

Q: We know the methods that doctors use to diagnose physically induced ailments; what are the methods used to dispose spiritually induced ones?

A: Midah kneged midah is one way - the reason Hashem punished midah kneged midah is not because He likes poetic justice; it is in order to make us

aware of what sin caused the suffering. Rav Chaim Volozhen explains the reason why bitul Torah is not as easily identified as the cause of suffering as other sins (hence "pashpesh vlo matza yitleh b'bitul torah) is because whereas suffering normally corresponds to the part of the body that committed the sin, bitul Torah is capable of causing any and all types of suffering.

By Looking into the Torah we can identify the cause of our sufferings the same way as looking into the medical books is the way we identify the cause of physically-induced suffering. There are plenty of types of suffering that the Torah ties to specific sins. Through Torah, we can understand what is happening in the world. This, you don’t have to be a prophet or have Ruach HaKodesh to identify the source of suffering. At least not more than you need Ruach HaKodesh to understand the Torah. Chacham adif minavi. Chazal were baalei ruach Hakodesh, and the prophets were, well, prophets. By understanding their words, we can leverage their understanding and be able to ascertain what Hashem wants from us, the same way we use their words to understand what Hashem wants from us in terms of Halachah and Hashkafa etc.

Of course, some shailos are easier to "pasken" than others, and the requisite level of Torah expertise is required. But it is the Torah that we look into to understand these things - we do not need to look into the Heavens. Chacham adif minavi - looking into the Torah is the best way to understand Hashem's message.

Q: Please cite some examples of where our leaders have looked into the Torah and discerned the reason for suffering

A: Several examples are cited above. I'll reprint them here:

The Churban Bayis was attributed to Sinas Chinam. Would this rabbi say that Chazal were wrong and better we should find the good in the Jews who lived during the Churban? Were Chazal then "accusing the Jewish people?"

As the Chavas Daas writes in the introduction to his commentary on Eichah, there is no point whatsoever to recount tragedies unless we at the same time recount the reasons that caused them, i.e. the sins, in order to ensure that we are careful not to allow them to happen once more.

Throughout history, whenever calamity befell Klall Yisroel, we held it obligatory to access the cause of the suffering, so that we will know what it is within us that needs improvement, and to make sure we know how never to allow that suffering to return.

So the Chasid Yaavetz wrote a sefer, Ohr HaChaim, analyzing the sins that caused the Inquisition. He did not refrain because of "accusing" Klall Yisroel.

Rav Elchonon Wasserman ZTL analyzes the sins that caused Hitler's coming,

as well as our suffering during the blood libels in Europe.

Rav Chaim Ozer Grodzinsky ZT”L, in the introduction to Achiezer analyses the sins that caused our suffering during World War I.

A couple more examples (I could go on forever - our seforim are packed with such pronouncements): The blood libel against Jews has been explained as Mida Kneged Midah for the brothers selling of Yosef and using his blood as a cover.

When there was an earthquake in Tzfas, killing thousands, the Chasam Sofer attributed it to the fact that people had messed up their spiritual priorities by ignoring Yerushalayim and instead focusing on the lesser holy city of Tzfas (he mentioned other specific reasons as well).

Rav Shach said that he is certain that the Yom Kippur War, came in response to the attitude of Kochi Votzem Yadi in the Israeli army.

(to be continued)

Some more examples:

Rav Michoel Ber Weismmandel ("Ten Question to the Zionists") wrote that it was accepted amongst Gedolim during Hitler's rise that his coming was a manifestation of Hashem's anger because of Zionism. The Satmar Rebbe (Introduction to Vayoel Moshe) writes this explicitly - and says that such is clear from the Gemora's description of the punishment for violating the Three Oaths r"l.

The Chazon Ish (explained that the deaths of countless innocent children during the holocaust was Midah Kneged Midah because of the thousands upon thousands of frum children who were sent to heretical schools - some willingly and some unwillingly - schools which the Chofetz Chaim used to refer to as "Molech." There, they burned the souls of Jewish children while maintaining their bodies, and so r"l Midah Kneged Midah took place, Hashem yishmereinu (quoted in Kol Yaakov, by Rav Yaakov Teitelbaum, p. 127, as well as in Maaseh Ish, vol. 5 p.128).

(to be continued)

Rav Elchonon Wasserman, in Ikvesa D'Meshicha, describes how Jews, before WWII, were imitating the non-Jewish ways. His words:

"In recent times Jews have stopped learning Torah, and as a result, they have spare time. How do they spend their free time? They go in droves to the amusement places and theaters, returning home filled with unholy thoughts;

thus the Jewish home also becomes defiled.

"Hashem's answer was not long in coming: Like lepers, Jews are driven form the Gentiles' places of entertainment ... 'If you do not keep apart from the nations, you will be delivered into the hands of Nevuchdnezzar and his cohorts' (Rashi on Vayikra 20:26).

"These days, the Jews have chosen two 'idols': socialism and nationalism [i.e. Zionism - Mod]...The doctrine of Jewish nationalism can be summed up in the phrase 'Let us be like the goyim'. All that is required of a Jew is to have nationalist feelings. If he pays the shekel and sings Hatikvah, he is exempt from all the Mitzvos.

"Clearly, according to the Torah way of thinking, this is idol worship. These two forms of idolatry have poisoned the hearts and minds of Jewish youth...

"And now a miracle has happened: In Heaven, these two idolatrous organizations have merged into one: national-socialism, the deprived Nazi movement. It has grown into a horrendous rod of Hashem's wrath which strikes at the Jews in all corners of the globe. The abominations to which we have bowed down are striking back at us.
Your evil deeds will punish you' (Yirmiyah 2:19) - Ikvesa Demeshicha, p. 38. 39, English version.

Rav Elchonon uses the Midah Kneged Midah principle consistently to explain our sufferings during the WWII period (see also p.59,60).

(to be continued)

More contemporary examples:

If memory serves, an article in the Jewish Observer by Yonason Rosenblum, written a few years ago, cites Rav Moshe Shapiro as stating that the reason for the dangerous situation in EY today is due to the attitude of Kochi V'Otzem Yadi (similar to Rav Shach above) - if anyone can pinpoint that article and quote for me please let me know.

Rav Avigdor Miller (quoted in Nation On Fire, by Sara Shapiro, p. 306) stated that the reason for the Intifada was Mida Kneged Midah: Ehud Barak issued a statement that he was planning to transform EY into a secular state. "Because Barak made a decision to go against Hashem and assure that Torah would have no place in the secular nation, Hashem said, 'Now I’m going to teach you a lesson.' Now they are crying to Hashem 'Please help us Hashem.' Even the non-religious Jews are crying out. This is Mida Kneged Midah."

In his Rejoice O Youth, Rabbi Miller explains most of the major tragedies that took place during Golus with the rules that Chazal tell us about punishments:

"When the Jews in Spain began to use that wealthy land as a means of mingling with the Arabs and Spaniards, G-d's plan caused them to be expelled to lands of lesser culture, such as Turkey and Poland, with whom our people had no incentive to assimilate. (#590)

Serious persecutions in Russia began only when the Jewish assimilationists began to preach that Judaism is darkness and among the gentiles all is light and joy. (#595)

"But on the upsurge of the greatest defection
from the Torah in history, which was expressed in Poland by materialism, virulent anti-Torah nationalism, and Bundism, G-d's plan finally relieved them all of Free Will and sent Hitler's demons to end the existence of these communities before they deteriorated entirely. The European Jews, many of whom had long admired and imitated the Germans, were finally weaned from this enamoration by the German murder factories. The survivors would find it difficult to admire the inhuman devils who had gassed their families and tortured to death six million Jews." (#596)

He has much more, but that is a sampling.

(to be continued)

Q: So can I, a random teenage boy or girl, figure out why Hashem is making me suffer

A: Not likely. On one hand, Hashem wants you to improve something, which is why He makes us suffer; on the other hand, as I mentioned, to decipher Hashem's message takes Torah knowledge - it's like paskening a shailah. Without the requisite Torah expertise, it’s not likely you’ll find the right answer. If you won’t rely on your own pshat in the Tosfos, I would say surely you do not want to rely on your own pshat in Hashem's messages. Remember the GRA's explanation of yitleh b'bitul Torah --- if you can’t identify the aveirah that’s causing the suffering, that is because you don’t know enough Torah. Ergo: If you don’t learn enough Torah you aren’t going to find the answer.

And if you do find it, if you’re guilty of lot of Torah ignorance, you’re likely not to find the right one.

As an example, someone once came to the Chazon Ish (the same Chazon Ish who identified the reason for innocent children being murdered in the holocaust) and told him he was saved miraculously, and he wants to know what Hashem wants him to do, because clearly, Hashem wants something from him.

The Chazon Ish knew this person from before, and realized that he was asking not about simply fixing his sins - that he would surely do - but about some lofty levels that Hashem, to his mind, requires of him, or something like that.

So to him the Chazon Ish said, "It's impossible to know, and therefore, you can get lost in areas you don’t belong ("farkrichen" in Yiddish). Therefore, do nothing."

So in your case I would suggest following the advice of Rav Shach (quoted in Maaseh Ish vol. 2 p. 146):

When suffering strikes, it is understood that when you see the something obvious and clear as the reason, or you feel specific things that need to be rectified, it’s obvious that in such a case you are obligated to fix those things. And if someone does not try to rectify those things, he will be held greatly responsible r"l. However, in general, when a person does not know why something happened, he should not try to start analyzing things, but rather, he should strengthen himself in his Torah learning, and through the increased Torah learning his Neshomah will be strengthened (besides the learning itself). In addition, he should improve his davening, more kavana etc.

I would also advise that even when things appear "obvious", you should consult with a Talmid chacham. What is obvious to one person may be anything but to someone who is more knowledgeable.

The idea that nowadays if we start analyzing our actions in complex ways, we are liable to go totally off the mark, comes form the Chazon Ish - see Maaseh Ish vol. 2 p. 146.

(to be continued)

A caveat to the above:

I mentioned this elsewhere, but it is worthwhile repeating.

The entire idea of attributing suffering to specific sins only applies when you know of the existence of the sins already. But if someone is suffering, and they ask you what they did to deserve this, if you try to say well, it must be that you did such-and-such sin to deserve this, that's no good. Because in that case, you are being mekatreg. You don’t know whether the sin was committed altogether, and if it was, under what circumstances or what context. And therefore, by saying that a certain sin must have brought about the suffering, you are saying that the person deserves the suffering for his sins. That’s the mistake that was made in sefer iyov - just because iyov was suffering does not mean you can see in him. (E.g. see Igros Chazon Ish 1:201).

SCHAR V'ONESH-----holocaust / chochom ovadia

Here is something I don’t get...
What was Rav Ovadia Yosef talking about when he said that those who perished in the Holocaust were reincarnations of sinners from the past? I heard this on CNN, and have been asked about this by my not yet frum relatives. What do I tell them?
Thank you

First, tell them that while the job of a rabbi is to say the truth even if it unpopular, the job of the leader of a political party is to say things that will make him popular. As both a rabbi of enormous renown and the head of a political party, the Chacham Ovadia has B”H chosen to say what he believes rather what is politically advantageous for him. Personally, I wish all my politicians would possess that kind of candor. The world would be a much better place.

However, even a “political” politician often gets his words twisted, taken out of context, and plain mistreated by his political opponents. An honest and outspoken person in the same political spotlight is a sitting duck for the pastimes of political antagonists.

That’s what happened here.

Before we get to what he said, let’s first clarify what he did NOT say.

He did NOT say that the righteous martyrs of the holocaust, including young children, were really evil because of sins committed in a past life. Gilgulim notwithstanding, evil and righteousness is determined by a person’s willful actions during his “current” lifetime.

The Chacham Ovadiah said something else. There are many reasons that our Tzadikim have given for the holocaust, all basically pointing in the direction of the holocaust being a Divine response to some widespread misconduct on the part of Klall Yisorel as a whole. This is no different than when Chazal attributed the deaths, suffering, and destruction of the Bais Hamikdash to various sins that took place at that time. (And no, there were no prophets during the second destruction.)

Throughout history, whenever calamity befell Klall Yisroel, we held it obligatory to access the cause of the suffering, so that we will know what it is within us that needs improvement, and to make sure we know how never to allow that suffering to return.

So the Chasid Yaavetz wrote a sefer, Ohr HaChaim, analyzing the causes of the Inquisition.

Rav Elchonon Wasserman ZTL analyzes the causes of our suffering during the blood libels in Europe.

Rav Chaim Ozer Grodzinsky ZT”L, in the introduction to Achiezer analyses the causes of our suffering during World War I.

The Satmar Rav ZTL, in the introduction to Vayoel Moshe, analyzes the causes of our suffering during WWII.

But after all of this, a question remains: Not everyone who died r suffered in any of these tragedies was guilty of whatever crime the sufferings have been attributed to. And although Chazal tell us that whenever punishment is unleashed in the world, innocent people suffer together with the guilty, there is still need for further explanation, as follows:

Granted that innocent people sometimes suffer, but why? And why specifically these people? If G-d knew that innocent people would suffer, why could the innocent victims not have been born and lived in America or the Middle East, thereby being spared the pain? Surely, in a world controlled by Hashem, it is not random chance that causes some people to suffer for no reason other than they were in the “wrong place at the wrong time?”

So let’s get the question straight before we answer it. The question is NOT “why were the victims guilty?” but rather “why did they die even though they were innocent?”

The Chacham Ovadiah’s answer is that sometimes innocent people, righteous, blameless, honorable people, die in this world in horrible ways.

Everyone dies. Some people die horribly. But there is always a reason. And sometimes, when someone comes into this world, he is already, before he steps foot out into the light, destined to die in a certain place, at a certain time, in a certain way. And it will have nothing to do with his guilt or innocence. Rather, it will have to do with the pre-determined fate of his migrating soul. Not HIM, his soul. This is a mystical, Kabalistic concept where people have predetermined destinies in this world that they are not even aware of, because they share their life on this world with a soul, which, unlike the person himself, has already been creating its destiny in past lives.

The Chacham Ovadiah is not attributing guilt to the victims who were not guilty. He is giving a reason why innocent people sometimes suffer. Would your not-yet religious friends prefer that Hashem allows innocent people to suffer for NO reason? Were the victims innocent or guilty? If innocent, then why should one innocent person suffer and not the next? If G-d is not random, then this makes no sense.

So now we know it does make sense, because there are other reckonings besides guilt and innocence. There is the predestined fate of the soul, which does not make the owner of the soul guilty.

Moderator- has anyone in your family died in the holocaust? All my grandparents were survivors. Over half their families were murdered. I refuse to believe for a second about gilgul neshamot and innocent people dying with sinners.

First of all, don't you recall the Rambam about Iyov? It's about Onaat dervarim. Everyone came to him about the loss of his family members and said it must have been because he sinned. What we learned from Iyov is that the balance of good and evil in this world is done in a way beyond our capacity to acknowledge. God alone judges. It is the rasha who gives a reason for someone's death.

My father is a survivor. My grandfather, unfortunately, did not survive.

If you do not want to believe in gilgulim that is your business. But Rav Ovadiah is not bound to your personal beliefs, therefore, your comments do not impact on the topic, which is what Rav Ovadiah said, not what mevaseret believes. The only beliefs Rav Ovadiah is bound to are those of the Torah.

The Iyov issue has nothing to do with our topic. The problem with Iyov was that they attributed sin to Iyov based on the punishment his relatives received. Other than that, there was no reason to assume Iyov committed any sin. If they do not know of any sin Iyov committed, they have no right to derive evil in him based on punishment.

We see from there that just because a person's relatives suffer does not mean he is a sinner.

But if we know he sinned, then of course he is a sinner!

Those that attribute the holocaust to sins of the Jews are not deriving any previously unknown sins. The sins were there, the irreligiosity was there, holocaust or no holocaust. They are merely attributing retribution to evil that we already know exists.

Had the holocaust not happened, the sinners would still be judged as sinners; the sins still judged as sins; as opposed to Iyov who was judged a sinner not because of known sins but because of the suffering.

That's regarding those who attribute the holocaust to certain sins. Rav Ovadiah was not even doing that. Again, Rav Ovadiah was not reducing the holiness or the innocence of the martyrs; he is not attributing any guilt to them at all (hence no comparison can be made to Iyov). Sins in past lives do not confer guilt, but rather fate.

According to you, how did Chazal know that the Bais Hamikdosh was destroyed because of sinas chinam? Were they "reshaim" for saying it? Would you claim that such a statement insults those who died in the Destruction?

SCHAR V'ONESH-----holocaust

Q. Wait let me get this straight 6 million Jews were brutally murdered and tortured for talking during davening.?!

That’s the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Nobody knows why the Shoah happened and I think it's really inappropriate to come up with answers like that. Unless you personally spoke to G-d, don’t bother coming up with answers to that. I hope you don’t go around telling stuff like that to Shoah survivors. This is in response to Aaron's comment



A. Imagine the Nazis invading a town. All the residents know what this means and they rush to get out of town as quickly as they can. They leave all their possessions behind and make for the railroad station.

But when they get there, they find their old friends from the other side of town who also ran to the station to catch the last train out.

The friends start shmoozing, catching up on old times. Just then, the train pulls in, and everyone is running to get on board.

But these two friends are just standing there shmoozing, all caught up in their conversation, ignoring the train and the conductor's yelling "all aboard!”

Then, as they notice the train pulling away, they start running after it screaming "Hey wait for us!"

But it’s too late. They missed the train, too busy with their shmoozing to escape the last train out of Nazi occupied Warsaw.

Does this mean that their being killed was a punishment for them talking while the train was leaving? Nope. All it means is that these people were morons and when they could have saved themselves they instead were busy yakking.

That’s what talking in Shul is. Tefilah is our salvation. Sometimes, our last chance. If you want to talk while Hashem is there listening to the prayers and arranging for your escape, that’s your business. But if those who are busy yakking during davening while their salvation is waiting for them in their prayers, well, don’t blame G-d, because He gave you a fair chance.

And PS - the reasons for the holocaust were given to us by Chazal. When suffering happens upon Klall Yisroel we must attribute it to our sins.



...Furthermore, I don't know anything about Rav Shach saying the holocaust came because of sins, but I do know that the Chofetz Chaim ZT"L and Rav Meir Simcha ZT"L of Dvinsk predicted the holocaust because of Jewish sins. The Satmar Rav ZT"L and others have said clearly, that the holocaust came due to sins, and not only that, but throughout history after every Jewish tragedy, our leaders have sought to find the sins behind the punishment.

That includes everything from the destruction of the Bais HaMikdosh (Gemora - sinas chinam) to the Inquisition (Chosid Yaavetz - philosophy), to World War I (non-kosher food and assorted other sins - Achiezer). Your saying that such a statement is "false" is simply baseless and against thousands of years of Mesorah, never mind beyond your authority to make.


...

As I mentioned above, throughout history, we have always sought out the reasons for our sufferings, regardless of whether - and especially in a case where! - the sufferings were horrific.

The Churban Bayis was attributed to SInas Chinam -- was that "heartless?"

And what does it mean that its heartless to identify a "reason" for the suffering of millions of Jews. How many Jewish deaths is it OK to identify reasons for? Nobody in the history of Klall Yisroel ever said that a tragedy was "too big" to identify a reason for it. Why does the amount of people who suffered change the rule of ain misah b'lo chet? And at what point does it change?

Had he merely said that he does not know the reason, or he believes that others cannot know, that would be one discussion, but surely he concedes there is a reason - G-d surely does not hurt people for no reason! - and so why is it "heartless" to be knowledgeable enough to know what that reason is? It makes no sense.

The opposite is true -- if I suffered c"v, I would want to know the reason I am suffering so that I should not suffer any more. If I went to a doctor and he told me the reason I got sick I would thank him. If a doctor was wise enough to figure out why an epidemic took place, we would be grateful. And the bigger the tragedy c"v, the bigger the hero would be the man who would tell us what made it happen.

If someone would withhold from me the reason I have suffered, him I would call heartless, because he would be withholding the key to prevent it from happening again.

As the Chavas Daas writes in the introduction to his commentary on Eichah, there is no point whatsoever to recount tragedies unless we at the same time recount the reasons that caused them, in order to ensure that we are careful not to allow them to happen once more.

And besides --- there were Gedolei Yisroel predicted the holocaust because of the aveiros that were happening. So these reasons were already known.

SCHAR V'ONESH-----gehinnom

Q: Do Jews believe in hell??

A: Not the Hell that the Christians believe in. "Gehinnom" is what happens to a sinner when he dies. That is, his soul is as yet unfit to attach itself to G-d, and it feels the excruciating pain of not being able to find its fulfillment by connecting to G-d.

This pain is the punishment for its sins, and also its purification. Eventually, the soul is purified and can connect to G-d to whatever degree it has earned the ability to do so. (There are exceptions: Some souls are so corrupt that they can never attach to G-d and flounder unattached forever. Still other souls are commanded to return to this world in a reincarnated state to fulfill themselves. The pain a soul experiences in returning to this world is worse that the pain of Gehinnom).

Distance from G-d is called "hell"; connection to G-d is called "heaven".

Gehennom is not a specific place, but rather the pain that comes from your soul being so unable to connect to Hashem because of its sins.

Gehennom is not run by any devil - there is no devil. Hashem runs the whole world.

The Yetzer Horah does not want people to go to Gehennom. The Christian fictional devil is our enemy who wants us to fall. The Satan is our sparring partner who wants us to beat it, even though it fights hard against us to train us to fight. When we go to heaven, the Satan is the first to rejoice, just as the sparring partner is the first to have Nachas when his client becomes world champion.

Gehinnom is a cleansing process of the soul. The pain purifies the soul. After the soul is sufficiently cleansed of its sins, it then goes to heaven (Gan eden) to collect its reward. it does not go "either to heaven of hell."

There rally is zero similarity between the idolatrous idea of purgatory, and Gehinnom.

Q: So you are saying Gehenom isn't a bad place? So if we beat the yetzer hara, it means we get to gan eden faster and if we can't beat the yetzer hahra that we'll just have to spend some time cleansing ourselves in gehenem and that we won't be burning in hell like the Christian devil?

A: "Some time cleansing ourselves" is a lot more serious than you make it sound. Imagine, for instance, spending an hour straight in the dentist's chair, your teeth being drilled with NO NOVICANE. Then imagine it for like a year straight.

Then intensify that pain a thousand fold. And more.

Now we're going in the direction of understanding what it means to be "cleansed for a little while". The pain of Gehinnom is unimaginable.

Know what I mean?

SCHAR V'ONESH-----onesh

G-d does punish, but you kind of bring it on yourself. As Shlomo HaMelch says, “B’rshoso yipol rashah”, “The evil man falls into his own evil”.

Just read the Tochachah, or the Chazal known as Mesechta Gehinnom. It's clear. You do Mitzvos, you get "schar"; you do aveiros, you get "onesh".

But you need to understand what that means. There are two parts to this: Punishment in this world, and punishment in the next. Here, we’ll deal with the next.

Jews are made out of three distinct parts.

(1) There's your personality, the part you would call "you". We'll call this the Ruach. The Ruach is made out of that very personal stuff inside you that makes you you. When you say "me", you really mean "My Ruach".

(2) Then there's your body - which is not “you”; it is a part of you, in the same sense that your hand is part of you, it is a possession of yours but it is not "you". Even though your body is made of dirt, physical stuff, your body also has a spiritual element to it, a kind of “spiritual dirt”. This spiritual part of the body is what passes for the "soul" of animals. There is nothing G-dly about this “animal soul”, that people, too, possess. In fact, it hungers for all the physical things in the world. We will call these components the Guf and the Nefesh Habahamis, or simply as Nefesh, for short.

(3) Part three is called Neshoma. It is made out of G-d. Really. It is a piece of Hashem Himself, that He connected to each and every one of us.

So you and I are composed of (a) Guf-Nefesh HaBehamis, (b) Ruach, (c) Neshoma.

Now there’s a problem here. You have a person who is comprised of two opposite spiritual forces: G-d, the Highest of the high, and dirt, the lowest of the low. How do they get along connected in the same person? The answer is they don’t. These are two conflicting forces within a person, each one wanting to escape from the other and rejoin its original source – the Neshoma wanting to connect back to Hashem, and the Nefesh wanting to connect to everything physical. You, your Ruach, is stuck in the middle. It’s like a tug of war, with the Neshoma pitted against the Nefesh. And the Ruach? The “you”? Heh heh – you’re the rope!

The Neshoma and the Nefesh HaBehamis pull you in opposite directions.

The Nefesh HaBehamis is also known as the Yetzer Horah; the Neshomah is the Yetzer Tov.

The Neshoma is the underdog in this tug of war because he’s fighting on foreign territory – he’s a G-dly entity in a physical world. The whole environment is stacked against him. But to even things out, in this tug of war, the rope itself can help either side to pull harder. That’s your free Will. You can help the Neshoma win the tug of war, giving it the strength to pull you AND your Nefesh all the way over the “line” into the world of Holiness. If the Neshoma can do this, you, your Neshoma, your Guf and your Nefesh experience Paradise on that “other side of the line”. You all get pulled into Hashem’s realm. The body itself, together with the Nefesh, is sanctified, and eventually enjoys the infinite delights of Olam Habbah.

If however, you don’t put in the effort to help the Neshoma beat the Nefesh, or worse, you help the Nefesh win, then the Neshoma loses the tug of war. But the Neshoma never crosses over into the physical world. You can’t corrupt a piece of G-d. Instead, it simply sees that it cannot hold the rope any longer without getting pulled in, and simply lets go. If that happens, you lose your Neshoma. You become no better than an animal.

The word “chet”, sin, literally means “missing”. One explanation given is that with every sin, we lose a little piece of our Neshoma. With each Mitzvah, we gain a piece. And the Neshoma becomes that much closer to overpowering the Nefesh.

Eventually, we die. At that time, if the Neshoma won the tug of war, all four of you – Neshoma, Ruach, Nefesh and Guf – together enjoy the infinite pleasure of connecting to Hashem. Hashem is Perfect, and there’s no greater pleasure than having EVERYTHING perfect with you. At first, the body gets buried and the spiritual parts of you go into “storage” (Olam HaNeshomos or “Gan Eden”) until Moshiach comes, at which time you’re all united and able to enjoy the Infinite pleasure together.

If, however, the Nefesh and the Guf won the tug of war, and the Neshoma let go of the rope, when you die, you find yourself in Hashem’s world as an entity comprised of animalism without a Neshoma. That is very, very, very painful. Beyond belief painful. Talk about not fitting in . . . ! Of course, most of us are not perfectly spiritual or perfectly animalistic when we die, but somewhere in between. And to the extent that the Neshoma was able to sanctify the body, we connect with Hashem and draw pleasure; to the extent that the physical aspects of us were victorious, we are out of place ,and in pain.

Now the question is, what does G-d do with the “soul in pain” after death? The answer is that after the physical/animal aspects of the person are “burnt up” by the spiritual world in which it finds itself (that “burning” is Hell-Gehinnom), G-d may allow what is left of that person to attach itself to Him on whatever level it can, or He may decide to send him back to this world with another body for another shot at conquering the Nefesh. Going back to the world for another shot is called “Gilgul Haneshomos”.

Gilgul Haneshomos is even more painful even then Gehinnim. At least in Gehinnom, it’s in a spiritual realm, and no matter how painful it is, it’s better than sending a soul back to the physical realm of dirt, having to live and fight in an environment that is anathema to its nature.

Either way, it’s no picnic.