MOSHIACH-----will solve everyones problems?

jewess27 Posted - 16 August 2000 15:14

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LOOK EVERYONE! There is going to be a brighter future for us all.

God created the world in all perfectness, in all 'goodness' - do you think that he's actually going to leave it the way it is at the moment? NO!

Of course he's not. He's going to send the Messiah and free us all of this bondage of stress, sadness, pain, war, famine, greed, lust and just plain evil.

Look forward to the BRIGHTER FUTURE!

Punims Posted - 17 August 2000 14:33

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Jewess, we've been told and been told all this again and again. For thousands of years the Jews have been waiting and waiting. How can we still believe that this "brighter future" is going to come?

We say we believe, but would anyone really believe that it can happen anytime, today, tomorrow, when it hasn’t happened for so long?

asdfg Posted - 18 August 2000 14:50

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Jewess, we can’t deal with our problems by saying that moshiach will come. Even though we believe he could come we have to deal with the reality each day he doesn’t come. Just because he might come doesn’t solve any problems it just gives us hope.

MODERATOR Posted - 21 August 2000 15:55

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Moshiach will not solve all our problems. In fact, if someone is not ready for moshiach he will have more problems when he comes.

Rav Shimon Schwab ZTL once wrote and article describing a Shabbos he spent with the Chofetz Chaim. He said that the Chofetz Chaim closed his eyes, and with great concentration announced, "You think that when Moshiach comes everyone will be happy? No! there will be those that will be running for cover! it will be Yom hadin (day of judgment). Are we worthy? Who will be worthy when Moshiach comes?"

The great Polish Rebbe, Rav Yaakov of Blendev ZTL once heard from his grandfather the Mouglinitzer ZTL that Moshiach may come soon. he got so scared that perhaps he is not worthy that he fell ill and could not recover for weeks.

"When moshiach comes, if someone has not yet done Teshuva, he will not be able to do Teshuva any more, and he will remain, c"v, with his sins" - Maharil, Laws of 10 Days of Repentance

It's true that when Moshiach comes it will be the "day that is always Shabbos." But it's also true that "He who prepares on Erev Shabbos will have what to eat on Shabbos."

Now it's erev shabbos.

MODERATOR Posted - 21 August 2000 16:04

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Punims,

Many people feel like you do about Moshaich's delay. This is largely due to the unfortunate, failed "Moshach awareness" that took place not long ago, where people all over the world were told Moshiach is coming any day, or even moshiach has arrived. Now they see that it was a mistake, and instead of attributing foolishness to those who declared Moshiach's imminent arrival, they take it out on the Ani Maamin itself.

A non-frum lady once came to Rav Yaakov Kaminetzky ZTL saying that she wanted to become frum, because she heard Moshiach is coming soon and she wants to be prepared.

Rav Yaakov ZTL told her that he can't say for sure, but doesn't see that Moshach is coming so soon. The lady went off, relieved and non-religious.

So Rav Yaakov's wife immediately asked to know why he gave up an opportunity to make this woman religious. "Did you have to tell her that?" she asked.

"Right now, this woman is not religious," said Rav Yaakov. "But at least she believes in one thing -- Moshiach. If she becomes religious because she thinks Moshiach is coming soon, and then he does not come, she will not only be non-religious, but even that one thing that she believes in - Moshach - even that one thing she will no longer believe."

Punims, nobody said Moshiach was "supposed to" come at any given time. there is no reason for disappointment. Some peoples' expectations were synthetically, unrealistically, raised, only to fall again, hard and painfully, when they saw they were wrong.

Don't be one of them. Don't blame Yiddishkeit on the mistakes of certain Yidden.

Punims Posted - 22 August 2000 4:52

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Rabbi, you once told me that it doesn’t matter what your reason for becoming religious is as long as you do it. That when you do it, you'll learn to love it yourself. If that is the case, then why did the Chofetz Chaim not let the woman become religious?

MODERATOR Posted - 22 August 2000 19:38

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Punims, I think you mean Rav Yaakov Kaminetzky ZTL, not the Chofetz Chaim.

Doing Mitzvos not for the right reasons is not the same as becoming religious under false pretenses. In the first, you want to do the Mitzvos just not for the best reason. In the second, your reason for wanting to do Mitzvos is a mistake. If so, as soon as you realize your mistake, you will have no reasons - good or bad - to be religious. In this case, the woman who wanted to become religious because she thought Moshiach is coming will just throw it all away when she sees she was wrong. Your religion cannot be based on a lie.

So here, if the woman had become religious under these pretenses and then realized her mistake and given it up, she would have given up even that one belief that she previously possessed (in moshiach), and she would have ended up worse off than she was before she became frum.

MOSHIACH-----if he hasn't come yet...

MusicMan Posted - 16 July 2002 20:06

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If Moshiach didn't come during periods of great gedolim - the turn of the century, the Gra, and others - why would Moshiach come now when we lack so much in that area?

MODERATOR Posted - 16 July 2002 20:18

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There are two answers to this (which, really, if you think about them, may very well be the same).

One, that the energy generated that brings Moshiach is measured relatively, meaning, one small act in our generation has a much greater impact in Shamayim than an even greater act from a previous, greater generation.

Also, the merits needed to bring Moshiach are cumulative. Every Mitzvah we do contributes to the building of what is called the "Bais HaMikdash shel maalah" - the Bais HaMikdash in sahmayim. Each generation contributes and builds more of it. When it is completed, it will trigger the coming of Moshiach and the building of the Bais HaMikdash down here.

So the previous generations actually helped whichever generation will bring Moshiach, by doing much of the work for them already. All that is left is for some generation to come and contribute the "straw that breaks the camel's back."

MOSHIACH-----shitas chasam sofer

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shtickleofapickle Posted - 27 November 2003 9:57

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you asked if anyone wants to ask about the Chasam Sofer then you'll answer, so I’m asking about the Chasam Sofer?

MODERATOR Posted - 27 November 2003 11:22

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The Chasam Sofer says that he cannot believe that belief in Moshiach is one of the Ikarim, because if Moshiach would be postponed indefinitely, and never come, Judaism would still be in effect.

The question is: The Chasam Sofer seems to say that it is possible Moshiach will never come!

The answer is: He didn’t mean that. The Chasam Sofer's point is to demonstrate that bias hamashiach cannot be one of the Ikarim. He is defining Ikarim the way R. Yosef Albo does in Sefer HaIkarim, that is, principles without which the religion would fall apart.

He is thus saying that theoretically, if Moshiach would not come, Judaism would still remain intact, as nothing would change from the situation today, and surely Judaism today has not fallen apart.

An almost identical statement is made by the Ramban in his disputation with the Christians. They claimed that without a Messiah there is no religion, and the Ramban answered that our job is to do Mitzvos, with or without a Messiah. He didn’t mean that Moshiach will not come, but rather that even if Moshiach would not be inevitably coming (even though in fact he is), Judaism would still function intact.

Punims Posted - 19 December 2003 18:19

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So according to him, there are 12 ikarim?

MODERATOR Posted - 19 December 2003 18:29

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Well, he says first of all that he believes that everything in the Torah are Ikarim; there are no 12 or 13 or 14 that have a different status than anything else. Then he says that even if he was to accept the concept of Ikarim, he would not believe that the coming of Moshiach is one of them, since our religion and our practicing it can remain intact even if moshiach were not to come (please see my post above - he does not mean it is possible for moshiach not to come).

This is kind of an echo of a statement by the Ramban in his debate against the Christians that our religion does not depend on Moshiach - it depends on Mitzvos, and so even without moshiach, our religion is 100% intact. The Chasam Sofer is just adding that this applies indefinitely.

MOSHIACH-----shitas rabi hillel

MODERATOR Posted - 23 January 2003 17:22

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That’s an interesting pshat in Rabi Hillel. But the reason he is not spoken about in this context is simply because his opinion is rejected from the Halachah. We do not pasken like him. In fact, the sefer HaIkarim writes that l'halachah Rabbi Hillels opinion is Kefirah. But Rabbi Hillel is not considered a Kofer c"v but rather a Talmudic sage because he developed his opinion according to Halachah.

In any case, Rabbi Hillles opinion is not accepted l'halachah. That’s why it’s not discussed.

MOSHIACH-----when is he coming?

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Cookie Posted - 22 January 2003 19:13

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When is he coming already?

MODERATOR Posted - 22 January 2003 19:31

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Cookie,

You don’t need to know when he's coming. It doesn’t matter. Our job is to do Mitzvos. Moshiach will come when he comes.

More: You’re not supposed to know! First, part of being in Golus means not knowing when the Geulah comes - for when you know the time of the Geulah, you are really, in essence, already redeemed (Maharal).

Second, one of the things we know about Moshiach's coming is that it will be a surprise - meaning, we will not know how or when it will be. If we envision Moshiach's coming in a certain way, then for sure it will be a diff way.

The reason for this is, when Moshiach comes, the Satan dies. SO the Satan focuses all his energy on trying to make Moshiach not come. Therefore, to protect Moshiach, so to speak, Hashem makes moshiach come in such an unexpected fashion, so as to "hide" him form the Satan.

If we know the specs of Moshiach’s arrival then the Satan knows it too, and then he will try to make sure they never happen. We will not know the details of Moshiach’s coming till he comes - then it’s too late for the Satan to do anything about it.

Thank G-d you DONT know when or how Moshiach is coming. if you did, that would likely prevent his arrival altogether.

MOSHIACH-----prerequisites for

MODERATOR Posted - 20 January 2003 8:48

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I am reprinting this from the "Different Types of Orthodoxy" forum:

As far as Moshiach and Kibutz golius is concerned, your question is asked, and answered, by the Rambam himself. In Igeres Taimon, he demonstrates that the self-proclaimed "Moshiach" that was running around in those days was not Moshiach at all. He does this by mentioning several signs that Moshiach must display, none of which are fulfilled by the man in question.

He then says that following any such false redemptions would be a violation of the Oaths, which were designed specifically to make sure that Klall Yisroel would not try to end the Golus before the proper time.

He says that this man cannot be Moshiach because, among other things, Moshiach will be suddenly and by surprise in Eretz Yisroel. Nobody will have expected this man to be Moshiach.

"At the time he is revealed, the nations will be petrified from what they hear about him; they will assemble to try to plot a defense in response to him, for they will be in awe and terrified at his open and undisputable signs and wonders".

The Rambam mentions the Kibutz Golius that Moshiach will perform, and also says that the fulfillment of world peace and the "conclusion" of the "fearful acts that will take place from east to west", "they will not happen at the beginning of his revelation in the world, but rather after the war of Gog and Magog."

Moshiach will be a prophet greater than all prophets except Moshe Rabbeinu. He will be a unique Tzadik as well, with qualities that were until then present only in Moshe Rabbeinu. He will be known as such. "Therefore, if someone who is not publicly known for his wisdom gets up and declares he is Moshiach, we may not believe him."

In other words, first Moshiach will be revealed suddenly in Eretz Yisroel, with signs that he is Moshiach, then, after Moshiach's revelation according to those signs, there will be Kibutz Golius, the war of Gog and Magog (it is clear that the war of Gog and Magog will be after the revelation of Moshiach), then other Messianic prophecies will be fulfilled.

This is supported by the Gemora at the beginning of Avodah Zorah which states that even before the war of Gog and Magog, Moshiach will be revealed, known to the nations of the world, and the nations will be so scared of him that they all want to become Jewish.

So even though we will not know for sure that this person is Moshiach, we will have a measure of evidence, such that we will be entitled to assume that he is indeed the real Moshiach. And that assumption would allow us to follow him from Kibutz Golius.

The problem is, as Grend mentioned, the Rambam in Mishne Torah says (11:3) that "Moshiach will not need to do any signs or wonders and change things in the world or nature or resurrect the dead ... rather, if someone of Dovidic lineage, and performs mitzvos like his father Dovid ... and will make all of Klall Yisroel follow the Torah, and repent, he is assumed to be Moshiach. If he succeeds..."

SO first, even here, the Rambam tells us that a prerequisite even for a person to be assumed to be Moshiach is that he will cause all of Klall Yisroel to do Teshuva. With a 60% intermarriage rate in America, and will all the rebellious teenagers still not frum, and with all the Loshon Horah that is spoken, and all the Aveiros that we all still do, clearly, not even an assumed Moshiach is has yet arrived.

(Note: Here, too, Lubavitch has distorted things. When the Rambam says that Moshiach will make all of Klall Yisroel do Teshuva, he is not referring exclusively to what we call "Ballei Teshuva" - people who know nothing about Judaism becoming religious. He says all of Klall Yisroel, meaning, the religious Jews as well. More so, even, because if we are going to consider the non-religious TInokos Shenishbu, then they have little to do Teshuva for, compared to us. The Rambam means that Moshiach will make all the Yeshiva bochurim and BY girls and frum baalei batim do Teshuva. And even according to their distortion, nothing close to even all of the Tinokos Shenishbu have done Teshuva. As I mentioned, an intermarriage rate of over 60% in America means that not only have they all not done Teshuva, but their situation in a way is a lot worse than ever in Jewish history. A far cry from the Rambam's requirement.)

But besides Teshuva, the Rambam also says (11:12) that all Jews will gather around Moshiach, who will determine their lineage with Ruach HaKodesh, and (see Kesef Mishna) that he will also possess the Urim V'Tumim.

In Hilchos Teshuva the Rambam writes that Moshiach will be wiser even than Shlomo HaMelech, and all the Goyim will come and listen to him.

And more: The Rambam writes that one of the requirements of a Navi in general is that he perform supernatural acts to prove his stature.

And the Rambam in Pirush HaMishnayos in Sanhedrin (ch. 11) explains that all the world, including the Goyim, will make peace with Moshiach and serve him, "because of his great righteousness and the wonders that he will do, yet reality will not be changed from what it will currently be, except for the fact that the Jews will rule."

So clearly, there will be many wondrous acts and even miracles that the Moshiach will perform, even before the world changes, and what the Rambam says that Moshiach will not do any wonders or miracles is referring to wonders and miracles such as he lists, like the resurrection of the dead and similar things that are changes in the reality of the world, things that will indeed happen later on in the Messianic age. So all the Rambam means, as he says more clearly in Pirush HaMishnayos, is that the Moshiach will not perform any Messianic changes in the world until later on, but even at the beginning of his revelation, he will perform several wondrous acts.

When all that happens, we can follow that man into Kibutz Golius.

And Kibutz Golius doesn’t even mean that we will go from Chutz Laaretz into Eretz Yisroel. The Raavad in his commentary on Edios writes that before we go into Eretz Yisroel, Moshiach will take all of Klall Yisroel through the desert again, like he (Moshe, the redeemer) did the first time. If that doesn’t happen, then it's not the Kibutz Golius.

MOSHIACH-----who will merit it

dina17 Posted - 12 November 2003 20:17

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Rabbi just wanted to tell you how much this web site is amazing!!!!!!!

Ok when mashiach come there is gunna be tiycheyat hametim and who the ppl who are gunna come back to life will be zddikim only ??? every body is gunna come back to life?

If only zaddikim are gunna come back to life so why should we even try to work on our self?? We will never be like Avraham avenue or even like the Rav Shach.

It’s really hard for me to think that I will work all my life on my self and I won’t even be zoche to come back to life!!:(

MODERATOR Posted - 12 November 2003 20:53

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Everyone who merits a "share in Olam habah" will be back. That excludes apikorsim, and several others listed elsewhere on this site.

Your question about being as big as Rav Shach or Avrohom Avinu contains an inherent contradiction. Because Rav Shach himself could not be as great as Avrohom Avinu, which means that you do recognize that there are different levels of Tzadikim, yet all those levels are considered "success."

Your question was asked by Rav Chaim Vital to his great Rebbe, the Arizal. He asked if the previous generations could not bring Moshiach, and they had the great sages of Chazal, and the prophets, and the avos, how can we ever hope to?

The Arizal answered that everyone is judged according to his level - l'fum tzaarah agrah - and so since our generations are so small, one little mitzvah in our generation is considered equal to much much greater mitzvos in previous generations.

Your righteousness is determined by how much effort you put into being a Tzadik - not how successful you are. Therefore, even if the earlier generations were much more successful in doing great Mitzvos than we are, since we can put in our maximum effort, we are thereby able to be considered as great Tzadikim as them.

burning Posted - 21 November 2003 10:23

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mod- that could really give a person chizuk! that u could be considered as great as s/1 who u think is better. it just shows us how much potential is in e/1 and w/ the use of out potential, we can help bring Moshiach, b'mhara b'yameinu!!!