HALACHA-----smashing someones tv

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Avrem Yitskhok Walters Posted - 06 February 2001 23:55

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BS"D

I have recently destroyed some BA (Bnei Akiva - a non-religious "modern orthodox" (sic) youth group) material, calling for "Solidarity with Israel" (sic again).

The people responsible for these leaflets are now requesting a written apology (as well as threatening (and carrying out) physical violence; it sums up "modern orthodoxy" doesn't it!)

What is the correct response here?

MODERATOR Posted - 07 February 2001 16:01

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You should have asked what was the proper thing to do in the first place.

The following is a summary of a Teshuva of Rav Moshe Sterenbuch shlita, Rav of the Aida HaChareidis of Jerusalem, in his sefer Teshuvos V'Hanhagos I:368.

Question: A Baal Teshuva whose family has a television. Is he allowed to break the television so that his family cannot watch it?

Answer: It is definitely prohibited to watch television. However, there is a disagreement in the poskim between the Ketzos and the Nesivos as to whether force may be used to get people to fulfill Mitzvos by just anyone, or only by Bais Din.

I believe the poskim who rule that only Bais Din may use force are correct, and even according to those who say anyone can use force, that is only after seeking permission from a Bais Din, for at times by destroying someone's property in order for them to be religious, you have made them instead less religious by distancing them.

In the Gemora Brachos (20a) we find the ancient Tzadikim saw a woman wearing a coat that was Pritzus and they tore it off of her on the spot, even though they had to pay 400 zuz to her for it. From here it appears that it is proper to destroy a pritzus article of clothing, and certainly, then, a television as well. Rachel, too, in a similar fashion, stole the terafim of her father.

However, my opinion leans in the direction that all such acts have need a shailah from a Rav. For even Rachel, who hid her act of stealing the terafim from Yaakov Avinu, ended up getting punished (inadvertently). So too, perhaps it is not time yet for them to be separated from their television, for everything has its proper time. And through the advice of sages light dwells and one should not make a move against their words.

Certainly you should speak to the parents and explain them how bad the television is for them. But to destroy it, even if you pay for it, you must ask a Shailah first."

That's the teshuva.

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I once asked Rav Yisroel Yaakov Fisher shlita, also of the Aida HaChareidis, if a camp finds in the possession of one of its campers, filthy magazines, can they destroy them, and if so, can we destroy a television that belongs to someone. He said to me "This is from the difficult questions..." and didn't give me a definite answer. I asked the same thing to Rav Elyashiv shlita a few days later and he told me "Only if it is asur ba'hanoah, then it is permitted, and then you have a source from the terafim."

So the time to ask was before the action. But you do have a question now, and the answer depends on if it was permitted for you to destroy these pamphlets - and I do not know what it said in there to deal with that.

Star Posted - 09 February 2001 2:50

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As for your statement: "it sums up modern orthodoxy doesn’t it"

Does it? I'm not so sure. There are a lot of modern people out there who would never destroy literature of another Jewish organization even if they don't believe in it.

I'm not affiliated with Bnei Akiva but come on now, it's not like Bnei Akiva tells people not to believe in hashem or the torah! And by the way, how do you explain those 4 so called Jews, from New Square who swindled millions from the Gov. by making up a false yeshiva????? Now that, is the biggest chilul hashem.

I don't know many modern people but the ones I do know, most of them are kind, good people and by the way, stuff like ncsy and beni akiva, yeah it might not be the most frum, but it's a start. It keeps them on the right track. You shouldn't knock it. Just be happy you’re the frummie you are.

MODERATOR Posted - 09 February 2001 3:28

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Star,

Not all of the "4 from New Square" were from New Square, and they were also not all Chasidish. In fact, one of them was Modern Orthodox, clean shaven, and wore a knitted Yarlmuka. They were all employed by Square, and the money from the school went to Square, but the School was in Brooklyn, not New Square, the students were Russian (mostly), not Square, and the perpetrators themselves were a mixed bunch.

Star Posted - 13 February 2001 15:31

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well since you say those guys were modern from new square, how about the 2 CHASIDISH rabbis from boro park Brooklyn who stole millions from a holocaust charity?????

MODERATOR Posted - 13 February 2001 20:27

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You’re missing the point. I was responding to the poster who said that Skvere Chasidim stole that money. I said that the robbers were not all Skverers nor were they Chasidim. In fact, this was used by the poster to somehow put down the Chasidish community, as opposed to MO. My response was that the Chasidim do not have a monopoly on Chilul Hashem in the Orthodox community, and that those who made the false Yeshiva were not exclusively Chasidim but included the other extreme as well.

MUSIC, MOVIES & TV-----moshav leitzim 2

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micah Posted - 03 September 2000 18:28

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moderator - um, backing up a bit, where exactly does moshav letzim apply? (concerts, amusement parks, sporting events, etc)

MODERATOR Posted - 03 September 2000 21:03

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Amusement parks are not Moshav Letzim - it must be a group of people involved with each other, such as a theater.

As far as sporting events go, that's the conversation I had with Rav Schwab that I wrote about in a different post. Sporting events should also be prohibited under "theaters", but that is something that most children - and perhaps even adults, but especilly children - will have a very difficult time accepting.

So his recommendation was that we should not force our children not to go to sporting events, we should rather focus on educating them, building up their madreigah so that they will be willing on their own not to be invovled in these events.

I guess it's kind of similar to loshon horah that is so widespread, we have to build ourselves up to where we can refrain from it. Not everyone can handle everything cold turkey.

MUSIC, MOVIES & TV -----tv & baalei teshuva

The halachah applies to everyone equally. The Baal teshuva quote has nothing to do with that.

Television certainly is assur. It would fall under the category of al tashken b'ahalechah avlah, which would prohibit you having it in your home, and sifrei cheshek, which would prohibit you from watching. It's really quite simple.

As far as a new BT is concerned, the Halachah applies to him as much as anyone else. If, however, he cannot fulfill all the halachos at once, then he cannot. But he must try, as do we all, to fulfill all of them all the time. What we are willing to do, and sometimes even what we are capable of doing, is a different story.

That story is the issue of Nisayon, not Halachah. You’re confusing the two. Nisayon means that what for me is perhaps an easy nisayon may for someone else be a very difficult one. And the level of righteousness and villiany that we are on, depends on our efforts, not our successes. So if lets say for me eating in McDonalds is not a Nisayon, I am not a Tzadik for not eating there but I'd be a big big avaryan if I did ( since it was so easy for me not to), for someone else, for whom McDonalds is a major Nisayon, he would be a big Tzadik for not eating there and not nearly as big an avaryan as me if he would.

But for both of us, McDonalds is assur. 100%.

It’s like let’s say mugging someone. If someone mugs someone for a nickel, for the fun of it, or if you’re a millionaire and you mug someone for a few dollars, you’re a much bigger rasha than if you no money and a family to feed, and were brought up in a criminal environment. But mugging someone is a crime in both cases.

It’s just that one is a more hideous crime and deserving of much greater punishment. Both people would be found guilty but the sentencing would be much different.

So too the halachah is equally binding on everyone --- guilty is guilty. But then there is the sentencing. How much do you get punished for your aveirah? And how much do you get rewarded for your mitzvah? How big a rasha are you for violating this halachah this time and in this place, and how big a tzadik are you for resisting?

The answer to that is, l'fum tzaarah agrah.

MUSIC, MOVIES & TV-----jewish music (II)

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It was a little disappointing to find out that a lot of the music I listen to is "questionably Jewish".

I thought that I threw away all that garbage music and was only listening to pure Jewish music. now I hear people are saying that music like d'vaikus, shalsheles and yehuda are only questionably Jewish. the ppl who composed them and made them are frum, respected Jews, why can’t the music just be plain Jewish?


Don't worry about it. The phrase "Jewish" when referring to music is not quantifiable, like when you're referring to someone with Jewish mother. The music you are describing is more than OK to listen to. You're doing nothing wrong.

Calling music "marginally Jewish" or "Jewish" or "reconstituted Jewish" is just words. If the music has words that are only Torah-oriented, and the melody is not obscene or even disrespectful to the words, then nobody will have a problem with you listening to it. Go for it.

The issue of whether its origins are purely Jewish or not does not touch upon the permissibility of your listening to it.

It's a pity, though. Because if our music wouldn't be mixed up the way it is, if it would be purely an expression of the Jewish Neshoma yearning for Hashem, it would do a lot more for us than it does now.

But that's not to say that what it does now is always bad. It's not. Not at all.

So enjoy your music.

MUSIC, MOVIES & TV-----jewish music (VI)

Again, which artists are these that put out this ethnically pure Jewish music you keep referring to?

As I said before, today's music is very foreign-influenced. The best we can get today is a song that helps you better feel or think about the words being sung, or the mood that is appropriate at the time (such as simcha - not holelus - at a wedding, or deveikus during kedusha). It doesn't depend so much on the artist, but on the song. It is the characteristics of a song, rather than the composer, that I feel would qualify it.

The reason I like Shlomo Carlebach's songs is that (a) the tune is always appropriate for the words, (b) he would not change the mood of a tune even if he knew that "misdirecting" the tune a bit would enhance sales (I know this as a fact), (c) none of his songs use the enhancement of grunts, or distorted, angry sounding pronunciation of words, (d) he did not put out songs because he wanted to make a record; he made a record because he had songs.

The Chasidishe melodies, and some others, share those or many of those qualities.

MUSIC, MOVIES & TV-----jewish music (V)

I don't see what is traditional or Jewish about taking a Carelbach tune and superimposing Greateful Dead arrangements into it. Carelebach songs are clearly Jewish, in the sense that they facilitate the penetration of the words that they are being sung into the psyche of the listener or singer. I don't know if his songs actually enhanced understanding of the words the way real Jewish music used to (I started a topic called "Jewish Music" that discusses this), but nowadays, it is perhaps the best we can do.

But to take those tunes and superimpose on them Greateful Dead type arrangements, which is basically all Reva L'Sheva does to them, I don't understand why that is considered a positive thing. If it helps attract people to Judaism, ok, I can hear that, but that doesn't mean that they did not make the song much less Jewish in the process.

In other words, they are not bringing the non-Jewish-acting Jews up to the level of Jewish music, but rather bringing the music down to the level of the non-Jewish-acting Jews.

Which may be fine, but the subject of discussion here is not the kiruv potential of certain music, but it’s Jewishness.

It is therefore not surprising that the same frum teenagers who, when listening to certain Carelbach songs feel comfortable sitting solemnly but happily thinking about the message of the words, will, when hearing the same song played by Reva L'Sheva, start "rocking" like simple clubhoppers with a beer in one hand and cigarette in the other. Visit Kalba Savua on certain nights and you will see this.

At the wedding of Shachar Bassan to Tiki Witt, Kalba Savua was playing Carelbach with a reggae twist. A man with a grey beard approached the band and asked them to stop. This happens sometimes, at frum weddings when the band gets a bit out of control, that the rabbi will politely reign them in.

But this wasn't he choson's Rosh Yeshiva that made the band stop.

It was Shlomo Carlebach.

"Chevra," he said to them, "Can you please play it the right way?"

Carelebach considered the rocked up versions of his songs to be not his songs at all. "It's nice and sweet and cute," he once said to his "chevra" on the West Side when they played for him a metallic version of one of his songs, "but it's not my song."

Those who were the biggest mavenim on what being Jewish and close to G-d means, enjoyed Shlomo Carelbach's songs. Rav Aharon Kotler ZT"L was particularly fond of "lulai soraschah". Yet I have no doubt that Rav Aharon would not find the same place in his heart for the rocked up version of the same song. It's just not within the realm of human imagination to conjure a picture of Rav Aharon listening to that stuff.

Rav Shlomo Alkabetz ZT"L (the author of "lecha dodi") writes that the reason music affects a person so deeply is because music is the language that the soul was used to before it came down to this world. The angels are constantly singing to G-d, and that was what the soul was accustomed to hear when it was in heaven. (Manos Halevi, Esther).

So here's the question: What do you think the melodies sung in heaven by the angels sound like? With no cultural influences, no commercial agendas, no Yetzer Horah, and no deadheads that need kiruv, do you think their music sounds more like lulei soraschah by Carelbach, or the metalized "mah tovu" by Reva L'Sheva?

MUSIC, MOVIES & TV-----jewish music (IV)

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Ok i dont understand this. everybody is saying that jewish music, the fast tunes, don't fit with the words. if all jewish music decided to fit with the words, all we'd have is slow, mournful music.

Who wants to listen to slow music all the time? ppl always tell me "jewish music is all the same." but there's so much variety, ESPECIALLY music like shlock rock and metallica. Those are the kinds of music that ppl might stop their bleep music (that crazy stuff) and listen to jewish music for, bec it reminds them of their music, except it's jewish.

If we didnt have any wild tunes or copys of nonjewish music, so many ppl wouldnt listen.

I love jewish music bec it has every single type, rock, jazz, country... anything. so u can help ppl stop listening to that other stuff and help them find their "type" except if all jewish music turned into slow sloooow nice beautiful music nobody would listen!

It's not true that all real Jewish music is sad, not at all. There is nobody as happy as a real Jew, and nobody's music would express happiness like real Jewish music. Some words are happy and loud, some are serious, some are solemn, but none are sad. because Jews aren't supposed to be sad. There's a big difference.

It's a wonderful thing that this music that is sold in Jewish stores is better than the junk in Coconut, but that doesn't make it Jewish.

Listen, Christianity, the Rambam said, was a step up for the goyim because it took them away from atheism; and Islam is a step up from Christianity. But would you have any objection to saying that these religions are not really what the Torah is happy with? Even though they are improvements for some people, who would not otherwise improve.

So too, the "Chicken Dance", on Neginah's Dance album, is better than Gangsta Rap, but that still doesn't make it Jewish. And Shlock Rock may be better than Lil' Kim, but that doesn't make it an expression of the Jewish soul.

One more thing: It's vital, whenever you do listen to this "Well at least it's not Jeannie in a Bottle", you MUST not think that it is what Jewish music is suppsoed to be. Don't allow the Satan to tell Hashem, "Well at least the people who listen to CHristina AUguilera KNOW that it's not Jewish music. These people are taking Your (Hashem's) expressive soul music and saying that SHlock Rock is it!"

Don't go there. Listen to what you must, but don't fool yourself into thinking it is more holy than it really is.

MUSIC, MOVIES & TV-----"jewish" music (III)

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I still don't see why today’s Jewish music is messed up.

Aren’t we supposed to try to listen to more Jewish music and less non Jewish even if it’s not assur.

What is the problem if the tunes aren’t always Jewish or completely Jewish. Like you said, the chasidic zemirous and others were not from Jewish tunes.

And who’s to decide which singers are Jewish, for instance the moderator even said that song with MBD caused a big controversy.

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Perhaps I wasn't as clear as I had hoped. Listening to what we call Jewish music is definitely better than listening to non-Jewish music, and sometimes it's even inspirational. But two things:

First, it does matter that our music is mixed up, and it's not like the chassidic melodies. There, the Rebbes made sure that the music provided the right message, Today, that's not always the case.

As an example, take the old Yerachmiel Begun's "elokai ad shelo notzarti aini kedai." The jumpy tune that it is sung to it completely at odds with the solemn message of the words. The tune is supposed to be a tool to better impact the words on your soul. But in this case, it messes up the message and gives the wrong meaning to the words. Now in all fairness to my friend Yerachmiel Begun, I heard from him many years ago that this was the fault of the person who did the arrangements.

But that’s part of the problem today, and that’s a big difference between our music and the Chassidic nigunim. Our songs, even after they are composed, go through many steps to make them marketable. All of this affects the message.

I remember, many years ago when I was a teenager, I was at a wedding in Brooklyn, where, during one of the dances, the choson’s Rosh Yeshiva, Rav Aharon Schechter approached me – I was standing watching the band – and, visibly disturbed, he asked me, “What IS this song they are playing?” (emphasis his)

I thought for a moment. It was the high part to the oldie (it was new, then) “ki kail po’el yeshuos otoh”, it starts “V’kayravtanu malkeinu”.

“Vkayravtanu,” I told the Rosh Yeshiva.

“THIS is V’kayravtanu???” He said, really puzzled, and somewhat upset.

“THIS? THIS? Is ve – kay – rav – tanu ??? V’kayravtanu???” he said, again.

He felt that the song, which by today’s standards would be considered almost chassidish, was too jumpy for the serious thought of asking Hashem to “bring us close, our King, to your Great Name.”

I learned something form that. To me, maybe, that song was inspiring. It certainly didn’t seem incongruous. But to someone who was more in tune with the words than I was, the song made no sense.

But I am sure, that, despite his objections to the tune, he was happy that they weren’t playing the Beach Boys.

So all I am saying is that what we call “Jewish music” is relative. If it inspires you, fine. But we just need to know that on a higher level of spiritual sensitivity, we would need to be inspired by other means.

MUSIC, MOVIES & TV-----jewish music

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First of all, what defines music as Jewish?

music that is definitely NOT Jewish: metallica, eminem, lil kim, creed, etc.

music that is definitely Jewish: chabad niggunim, modzitz niggunim, MBD, avraham fried, shlomo carlebach, and chazonus.

music that is questionably Jewish: anything by a Jewish person that is not in the above list.

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Unfortunately, not all the music you cataloged as "definitely Jewish", is. MBD's entire song "Yidden, Yidden," for example, is, from beginning to end, a German 80's song called "Dschingis Khan". And it's not the only "definitely Jewish" tune that was lifted from the goyim.

Even among the "oldies", the New York School of Jewish Song's "Btzais Yisroel mimitzrayim" is actually, note for note, a Greek syrtaki (type of dance).

Even Shlomo Carlebach was influenced by the French folk singer George Moustaki (they even look a bit alike). And compare the Irish folk song, "What should we do with the drunken sailor?" and Shlomo's "Odchah Hashem b'chol levav", and then tell me what "definitely Jewish" means.

And it is no secret, nor need it be, that many Chassidic niggunim were actually non-Jewish melodies that were "sanctified" and used at the tisch.

On the other hand, the way we perceive Jewish music, there are very few Jewish melodies that sound nearly as heavenly Jewish as Kitaro's "Silk Road" (particularly the "Enchanted Evening" version) and you would be hard pressed to find a more appropriate sounding "chupah march" than "Milky Way," by the same artist.

Yanni and John Tesh are sold today in Jewish music stores and their music is sometimes accepted as more Jewish than those of many Jewish composers.

When MBD came out with "Let My People Go". A number of Roshei Yeshivos declared it to be plain goyish music composed by a Jewish artist.

It's hard to define Jewish music today, since our music has for so so long been so so mixed up blended and influenced by and with any and all types of music that exist, and the only one criterion that determines what music is sold as "Jewish" is if the "Jewish market" is willing to buy it.

And marketing is a very messed up way to a spiritual concept, such as "Jewish music".

Music has tremendous power over us. It has the power to make us happy, sad, angry, optimistic, or hopeless. It can get a lazy guy moving, make our hearts beat faster, and make us shed tears. The Vilna Gaon writes that if someone could theoretically harness the power in music they would be able to actually “revive the dead” with it.

Music sits in your head even when you don’t know it’s there – how often do you find yourself absent-mindedly humming a tune without even deciding which tune to hum? Or to hum it at all? That doesn’t happen with non-musical information. You don’t absent-mindedly recite the Gettysburg Address. Tosfos in Megilla says that if you learn with a melody you will remember what you learn better.

Music comes from a person’s soul, says the Kuzari. The tune can have an effect even on the soul of a little baby that hears it, says the Shelah. So music is really a form of communication, soul-to-soul, that comes from somewhere deeper than the place where we make conscious decisions, and penetrates to there as well.

So I guess that Jewish Music would be music that comes from a Jewish place within a person’s soul, or at the very least, music that contains a Jewish feeling, meaning, a feeling that the Torah would encourage or at least approve of.

Now even Jews, because of the impact that their deeds and thoughts have on their souls, may have non-Jewish influences within their own souls that can be expressed in their music. And so, too, a non-Jewish melody can be “repossessed” by the Jewish soul, using the melody as a medium for the expression of exclusively Jewish sentiment.

Recognizing music as possessing Jewish sentiments is a matter of sensitivity. To be sure, to a certain extent, we do possess the sensitivity to recognize some musical sensations as thoroughly non-Jewish (such as the veneration for death in many metal tunes).

But for the most part, as we can see from the above examples, we no longer possess the sensitivity to recognize music that’s coming from a Jewish place within someone, from music that is coming from elsewhere. And it’s no wonder. Since we have mixed and matched both our music and our souls with foreign influences for so long, it becomes almost impossible to sense the Jewishness and non-Jewishness in our music altogether.

We have for the longest time commercialized the creation of song, cranking out melodies while being concerned more on the sale than the soul, that it’s unclear to me that today’s music is an expression of anything except market trends.

Music, really, is a lost art. Lost because we are not sensitive enough to recognize the message of Jewishness – and to discern an undesirable message of non-Jewishness – but also because there is very little left in our big business music industry that actually has a message anyway.

What we have are nice, catchy tunes, melodies to dance to, and songs to sing. But all that isn’t “music” in the religious sense. There may be an exception or two, but in general, we’re talking about a business rather than a religious experience. Or at the very best, something somewhere in between.

Our music today is a lot like us: mixed up and confused.

MUSIC, MOVIES & TV-----moshav leitzim

The Gemora in Avodah Zarah (18b) prohibits theaters because of Moshav Letzim. The Shulchan Aruch records that as Halachah in OH 307:16. So the definition is not mine, the Torah itself says it.

As to why sitting in a theater is included in moshav letzim, you need to look at the rest of the posuk:

"Fortunate are those who do not sit in a Moshav letzim, but rather desire G-d's Torah."

The posuk is saying that the fortunate ones - the ones that we have to be - are those who, instead of sitting in Moshav Letzim, learn Torah.

There is no in between in theis posuk. It is either Moshav Letzim, or learning Torah.

Thus, the Mishna in Avos (ch. 5) declares: "If two people are sitting together and they do not speak Torah, they constitute a Moshav Letzim."

The reason why simple wasting of time would be described as "Moshav Letzim," which means, as you put it "session of scorners" is discussed in the Meforshim. Basically, all explanations go in one direction. The Chosid Yaavetz explains it as follows:

If I showed you a pile of gold coins and gave you one hour to collect as much as you can - whatever you gather you can keep - you surely would not waste your time.

If you do waste even part of your time, it surely says something about how little you value the coins. In fact, it's kind of like slapping the coins in the face.

So too we have one lifetime to learn Torah. If we waste our time, it shows how little we value Torah. Someone who displays such blatant disregard for the value of Torah is a "scorner".

As far as Rav Dovid Feinstein, I am not aware of his attending ballgames. If he does - which I am not saying is the case - I cannot speak for him; you should pose the question to him himself. His number is listed. Let me know what he says.

But really, it's hard to believe that Rav Dovid attends baseball games seeing that his father in Igros Moshe YD IV:11 states matter-of-factly that attending sporting events is prohibited as Moshav Letzim.

Gemilas Chasadim and other Mitzvos are appropriate when the Halachah allows it, as per the dinim of "ei efsher laasos al yidei acheirim", but that's not the point.

In order to qualify as moshav letzim you have to do something that is bittul Toral en masse. Mitzvos do not apply.

As far as relaxing is concerned, that is permitted, as is stated in all the poskim. But not all forms of relaxation are permitted. Theaters are not.

And even among the ones that are, it is only in order to refresh yourself for Avodas Hashem.

Consider that if you had to collect those gold coins, you may need to relax somewhere down the line. But you surely would not spend any more time than necessary at it.

Your asspumtion about the nakedness and Avodah Zarah in ancient theaters incorrect. Like today, some were and some weren't. The Halachah does not distinguish between the two.



What's the difference between seeing a movie in a theatre or at your home? THERE'S NO DIFFERENCE! Why's one allowed and not the other.



If the problem with movies would merely be the stuff you are watching, then you would be correct that it doesn't matter where you are watching it.

But the problem of Moshav Letzim has nothing to do with WHAT you are watching. it is a seperate prohibition that is violated when people who engage in useless activity do so in a group. This is true regardless of the atmoshpere.

The reason for this is that if someone wants to waste his time in the privacy of his own home, that's one thing. But to do so in an organized fashion in a special place designated for wasting time is much more hurtful to Hashem, Who gave you your time to value. Wasting time is one thing, but making it into an activity is worse.



...We cannot exempt women from the prohibition of moshav letzim even though they are not obligated to learn Torah. There are two ideas to the statement in the posuk:

(1) You may not be invovled in organized unproductive activity (moshav letzim),

(2) but rather it would be better for you if you would be learning Torah, which is the most productive activity possible.

Even though, for women, Torah is not necessarily the most productive activity, that is only because they have other Mitzvos to do that are more obligatory for them than Torah.

The point of the prohibition is not to learn torah, but rather to invovle yourself in productive activity and not moshav letzim. The posuk gave what is generally the most productive activity possible, i.e. Torah learning.

If someone is not obligated to learn, they still have what is to them productive activity (mitzvos) and therefore have no reason to exempt themselves from "unproductive activity" (moshav letzim).


Tosfos in Shabbos (116b) quotes the Ri saying that secular literature (i.e. books about wars) should not be permitted even on the weekdays, because of Moshav Letzim.

The Maharsha explains that since draws you to read more, it therefore will cause you to be mevatel Torah (even beyond what you need for relaxation).

Any type of leisure activity that has an enticing, or habit forming effect, such as "books of wars" are included in Moshav Letzim, even though you are doing it privately.

It would seem that Moshav Letzim includes both group sessions of Bitul Torah , and also behavior which is characteristic of Letzim, even if done privately.

Letzim are those who do not care about Torah, and therefore, someone who willingly engages in activity that not only involves not learning, but will enhance his Yezter Horah for bitul Torah in the future, is a Letz.

MUSIC, MOVIES & TV-----asur

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Theaters" are prohibited in the Gemora Avodah Zorah 18b (give or take a page or 2), and quoted l'halachah in the Shulchan Aruch. It is a violation of "moshav letzim".

Q: If it is prohibited, how come so many really frum ppl dont know that? I'm so confused, practically everyone I know go theaters. and they're all from mega frum families.

A: You're right, it's a good question. I once asked it to Rav Schwab ZT"L. I was giving a shiur on Mishna Brurah, Laws of Shabbos, and after dealing with the chapter on permitted forms of entertainment (chap. 307), we concluded, based on what we read, that it would be prohibited to go to all kinds of movies, theaters, etc. I had almost the same reaction that you have here. I called Rav Schwab ZT”L (we didn’t have the Internet in those days) and asked him what’s going on.

He said that there is no question that theaters, movies, are 100% prohibited. The problem is that today’s youth, often are not prepared to accept that, especially since other “Orthodox” groups permit it freely. Sometmes, he said, you have to choose your battles. So if we are able to convince our children of the prohibition, we should. If we feel we cannot, then we should turn the other cheek, allow them the indiscretion (not that there’s a choice), and pray that through their learning Torah they will eventually understand it on their own.

I have heard the same sentiment from him at a different time regarding Chanukah presents. I was there when a certain Rav asked him why we allow Chanukah presents if it’s really not a Jewish custom, but rather a copy of the gentile custom of giving presents on Xmas. He said basically the same thing, that Chanukah presents are treif (Incidently, Chanukah “gelt” – cash, not presents – is a 100% Kosher minhag), but since the custom is so prevalent, if you as a parent will be the only one not to give your child a present on Chanukah, he will feel deprived and it can cause more trouble than it is worth. Therefore, since it is not Halachicly prohibited, but merely “not Jewish”, don’t fight it.

(It should be noted that in the case of the theaters, which is halachicly prohibited, we are not actually committing the sin; we are merely not objecting to it. In the case of the Chanukah presents, we would be committing the sin if it were prohibited. Therefore, to allow Chanukah presents, it is necessary to be Halachicly permitted).