ZIONISM / ANTI-----agudah

Matisyohu28 Posted - 31 July 2008 8:24

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Mod - the Agudah voted to be for the creation of the medina??? This is all news to me...and what kind of regular Rabbonim would have the chutzpah to vote against Reb Elchonon and Reb Ahron??? What do they think this is, America?

MODERATOR Posted - 31 July 2008 10:11

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No, they didn’t vote for the creation of a Medinah, c"v. they voted for recognition of it ex post facto. No Gedolim wanted a Medinah. plus they added the facts that (a) torah Jewry was never consulted regarding making the Medinah in the first place (which was designed to emphasize that the vote was ex post facto only) and (b) such a Medinah not run al pi din cannot be called a Jewish State altogether. Those were compromises with Rav Ahron and Rav Elchonon's position.

There were many misrepresentations of that meeting and actions that inaccurately used that meeting as a justification for them - see the documentation of all this in R. Zvi Weinman's excellent book "Mikatovitz ad 5 Iyar"as far as your question about the vote, there are Gedolim who have expressed that complaint regarding the whole process of "voting" for a collective organizational position, both for the reason you site - not everyone should get an equal vote - as well as others. Reb Elchonon, or example, insisted that the Agudah should also count on their moetzes gedolei hatorah Gedolim who refuse to be part of the Agudah - whether because they don’t appreciate the good points of the Agudah or because they understand the bad points - because they are Gedolim nonetheless. That directive was never implemented.

The reason for the Agudah's joining the government of Israel when it was created was because they made a deal with Ben Gurion sr"y that there would be no civil marriages in Israel and that the frum community can control their own education. This was paramount to the Agudah. So much so that they were willing to join the government in return. In fact, Ben Gurion's motive for making this deal was to shut up the religious Jews who he was worried were going to publicly condemn the so-called Jewish State, which would have been a PR disaster. So in order to keep the orthodox Jews quiet, Ben Gurion offered them that deal, which they took.

Thus, you will find on the Declaration of Independence of Israel - which by the way is packed with Kefirah and revisionist history l'chol hadeos - the signature of R. Yitzchok Meir Levine, of the Agudah.

What exactly the Agudah Rabbonim had to do with this if anything, is questionable - see R. Zvi Weinman's book for details - but the justification, whoever were the ones that justified it, was on the grounds that that was the only way to ensure the survival of the frum community in Eretz yisroel.

The fear - quite justified - that the frum community had from the Zionists was considerable. As Rav Chaim Brisker said, the Zionists don’t want to shmad Jews in order to make a state - they want to have a state in order to shmad Jews. The Gedolim were concerned that once Zionists create a state, forced shmad will occur in many ways, and so they cut this deal with Ben Gurion in order to prevent his destroying Torah in Eretz yisroel.