ZIONISM-----a total failure

Beautman Posted - 09 May 2001 14:32

---

Neither the Chofetz Chaim nor Rav Kook, lived to see the formation of the State of Israel, or the role it has played the past 53 years.

Many, many non-Mizrachi orthodox from all over the spectrum take great advantage of its existence and participate to varying degrees in civic life. How strongly do today's Gedolim hold to the pre-war criticisms of the Zionists?

And why are the actions of many on the "right" (so-to-speak) inconsistent with being "dead against" the state?

MODERATOR Posted - 09 May 2001 16:16

---

Beaut,

Taking advantage of the existence of the State does not imply approval of such existence. The Chofetz Chaim's position was based on Torah theology, not political predictions. Predictions can be wrong, but the Torah does not change.

In fact, there are those, such as Rav Aharon Kotler ZT"L, who held that the existence pf the State is wrong, but now that it is unfortunately here, we should at least try to make it as Torah-oriented as possible, and therefore you should participate in elections and others affairs of state in order to accomplish whatever can be accomplished.

But all this is merely the "lesser of the two evils". Others, such as the Satmar Rebbe, held that such participation in the affairs of a State that was wrong to make in the first place, makes you an accessory after the fact.

But they both agree that it should not have happened. The only disagreement is trying to help ex post facto is good or bad.

Nobody has changed their mind about the theological prohibition of the State.

If anything, the past 53 years have proven the Zionist fantasies about eliminating anti-Semitism, "normalizing" Judaism, and creating a "safe haven" for Jews, to be lies.

The State has not reduced anti-Semitism - on the contrary - it has made the Arabs into bloodthirsty enemies of the Jews (and this even the Zionists agree to - they just feel it's worth the price in Jewish blood to have a state, as quoted above from Rav Soloveichik); and it is anything but "safe": more Jews have been murdered in Israel in the past 53 years than everywhere else in the world put together. This, despite the Jews in Israel being less in number than the amount of Jews in Chutz La'Aretz.

It is true that the Torah leaders also predicted this, screaming that Jewish lives that will be lost by creating a State is not justifiable. Jewish lives are more valuable than any Jewish land - even the Bais HaMikdash itself.

The whole thing did not work out the way the Zionists thought it would. Instead of being a "normalized" nation-among-the-nations, we have constant terror and bloodshed, huge sacrifices of life limb and resources, zero reduction of anti-Semitism, and more anti-Semitism and murderous enemies in the Middle East than ever before.

We have less "normalcy" than ever before. As Rav Shach shlita writes (Letters, I:5):

"To me, the idea that giving back land endangers lives is not clear at all, and there are many officials in the Army that say just the opposite, and that the peace that can be achieved through giving back land will reduce the bloodshed. To me, there is not even a shadow of a doubt, that when peace will come the bloodshed will be reduced.

Also, you need to consider not only our situation here in Eretz Yisroel, but our situation all over the world, for when there is no peace in the [mid]east, this causes unrest in the entire world, for the world powers get involved and there is pressure on other nations to join their side, this nation joins this side, and that nation joins the other side, the need to supply arms builds and in the end there will be war.

When that happens, what will be with us? What value will our possession of land have when nowadays they have weapons that can destroy entire states and countries from far away? And how can you say that we may not give up what is our rightful inheritance from our fathers - for even now, without the support of the United States, for even one month or less we would not be able to survive on our own. And all these people that talk so big - "We, ourselves, and us, will be victorious!", they are nothing but poor people acting arrogant, something that hashem hates."

No, the "Zionist dream" did not work, by any stretch of the imagination.

More Jews were killed in the "safe haven" since its inception than everywhere else in the world put together, despite that fact that since its inception, there have always been more Jews outside the safe haven than inside.

What's wrong with this picture?