FACTIONS-----torah umada

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e Posted - 09 January 2003 5:46

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okay so I get kinda of get what MO is or what it is not and what TIDE is and is not but then ppl through out "torah umadah". what does this mean is it valid and where exactly does it fit in with the whole picture and what view or non-view or concept is it referring to?

MODERATOR Posted - 09 January 2003 5:56

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Torah Umadah is not a real philosophy - it is a phrase coined and used by some Modern Orthodox Jews in recent years, most notably Norman Lamm. It means "Torah and Science". And it means, in a nutshell, that secular studies have intrinsic value, not merely practical use. It's nothing new - it just rakes up old Modern Orthodox position, overlooks the fact that they were rejected, and garnishes it up as something new.

Every now and then Modern Orthodoxy throws in a new adjective to describe itself. I suppose they think it will reignite some kind of interest in their ideas. Its like a product that’s not selling well - you change the name and the packaging hoping people won't notice. It's pretty much all a marketing tool mostly by Norman Lamm, who conjures up these terms. For a number of years, they called themselves "Centrists", and their movement "Centrism." But its all the same.

e Posted - 14 January 2003 3:55

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so its a made up thing???

whoa! never mentioned in the torah?

okay so here's the question : I know torah is number one and the only truth but say I have to study just coz to get money coz we live in a physical world as they say so if I have to is it wrong to want to something I will enjoy and get pleasure intellectually if I keep it in perspective or is that giving too much value ??

MODERATOR Posted - 14 January 2003 3:58

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I know - it sounds like it's a Chazal or something, but nope, it doesn’t say it anywhere in the torah or Torah literature. It is a made-up phrase by Modern Orthodox not long ago.

It's OK to like things, it's OK to get intellectual pleasure form something, and its OK, every now and then, to read some secular stuff for fun or vacation or just to chill. The prohibition as recorded in Shulchan Aruch is to study it as a curriculum - like the make a "seder" out of it.

_student_ Posted - 09 February 2003 20:28

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Yalkut Shimoni, Shemos 173 refers to "ginzei Torah, chochmah, u-mada". Close.

MODERATOR Posted - 09 February 2003 20:49

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Yeah. Ha. I guess you can say, then, that the Torah Umadah people are missing the "chochmah" that is supposed to separate between the Torah and the Madah. ;-)