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SHIDDUCHIM-----yichus problems

Tamar Posted - 03 August 2000 12:39

I realize that this is a very upsetting topic, but I have nobody to talk to, and I am very worried. My family is modern, but I am trying my hardest to live a real, frum life.

My brother (he is 24) recently told me and my parents that he has decided to live a homosexual lifestyle. My parents don't care that it is a toava, and have continued to speak to him. From what I understand, I am doing the right thing by refusing to be close to him in any way. None of my friends know about it, they just think that I have cut him off since he has left the derech.

My question for you is, how much will this hurt my chances of getting a good shidduch when the time comes? I know that people do research and will be able to find out even this kind of secret. I worry about this all the time, and can use any chizuk you could give me.

MODERATOR Posted - 03 August 2000 14:43

Please tell me:

1) Are you a Baalas Teshuva (you family not religious)? You wrote "modern" but you also wrote they don't care about homosexuality, so I am not sure. If so, when did you become frum?

2) How old are you?

3) What are you "makpid" on in a Shidduch? Personality, learning ability, family background,etc.?

I will respond, but I would like to give you as correct an answer as i can. To do that, I need to know this background information.


Tamar Posted - 04 August 2000 12:53

Moderator - thanks for responding so quickly. i will try to explain my background briefly:

My parents were both born somewhat observant. they keep shabbos and kosher, (although not as strictly as i would like - i have to sacrifice somewhat for shalom bayisand kibud av va'am) I went to a co-ed hebrew day school, and the summer after eighth grade I became friends with a much more religious group of girls, and i convinced my parents to let me go to a BY high school.

Ironically, the same "acceptance" that makes my parents accept my brother's new life is what made them allow me to pursue the derech that I am trying to follow. examples of how i differ from my parents: they keep kosher, but I keep cholov yisrael. They keep shabbos, but aren't so careful about things like kli shlishi. My mother wears skirts, but doesnt cover her hair.

I am now 16, and some of my older school mates are obviously starting to go out and get engaged. It terrifies me that I may not be "eligible" for a good guy, since my brother is transgressing halacha in the strongest sense of the word, and my parents are accepting him. (they say that they dont want to lose him, and that nothing he does can make them stop loving him).

I guess I would want everything in a guy: a good learner, midos, a good family, etc. do i have to accept the fact that i wont be able to do so well? Or is there hope? Thanks - Tamar

- 04 August 2000 13:26

I know girls from worse “circumstances” than you, that married wonderful Bnei Torah. I will be honest, it would be smoother sailing if your parents and all your siblings were like you, but then again, it would also be smoother sailing if your family had money (I don’t know if they do) to support your prospective Kollel husband in learning. There are many girls out there from even the so-called “best” homes whose Shiduch lives could be easier had they a different “situation”.

However, these girls (the ones who aren’t rich as well as the ones from non observant backgrounds) commonly do find what they are looking for, what has been ordained form them min hashamayim, and, as a bonus, the guy who married them wants them for THEM, as opposed to the what comes with them. Baalei Teshuva, too, find wonderful Shiduchim today – both from the Baal Teshuva world and from FFB’s – regardless of the family situation. I personally know large numbers of them. They can be found all over the world. You need not worry about being left without your bashert.

I know you’re scared, as are many Baalei Teshuva girls, girls from Chareidi but financially struggling, families, girls from divorced homes, and others. Your shiduch effects your entire life! But the answer to your question is, no, you are not without hope. Far from it.

Do not underestimate the value that you yourself put into your “Shiduch” by virtue of your personality and your own commitment to frumkeit.

The road may be a bit more rocky than we would like, but you’ll make it. If you find a “bump” in the road, take it in stride and keep going. You’ll make it.

I would suggest contacting an organization called “Hashivenu”, run by a Rabbi Yehuda Zakutinsky, of Queens, New York. It is an organization that helps and supports Baalei Teshuva and others who have “joined the fold” with issues such as what you are going through.

If you want, I can also put you in contact with some of the Baalei Teshuva women I know who have married the most wonderful guys in the world, and even girls from frum families who “went off the derech” and came back, who are now married to the best guys around.

It may be a bit more bumpy, but it’s definitely attainable.

artzanu Posted - 04 August 2000 18:12

Moderator, I'm just curious do you agree with the craziness in the shiduchim world, where money means so much and so many boys (frum frum boys) will only want a girl with money so they can learn. is this a proper message for our children?

And Tamar, First I wish u the best of luck, But Tamar do you think the only way appropriate way to find a a husband is through the shadchan / shiduch scene?

MODERATOR Posted - 04 August 2000 18:20

As someone who does NOT have a lot of money, my answer is no.

Seriously, there are clearly much more important things in a shiduch than money, and also those learning for a very long time are not (proportionately) only those with rich in-laws. I believe what is happening is a misappropriating of values and energy, and it is a problem.

Those who are looking for money because they sincerely want to learn for a long time and see no other way to do it, that’s fine. The problem is that it’s become the norm to look for money, regardless of intentions or sincerity. That’s a problem.

And even those who are sincere and honest are often unwilling to entertain the proposal of different opportunities with women who will be moser nefesh for them to learn a long time, even if those girls are better than the other ones proposed. When that happens, you have mixed up priorities.

The problem is, often you need a bochen levavos to be able to tell who is who.

MODERATOR Posted - 07 September 2000 15:45

atyas and me,

You girls are 100% on the mark. Unfortunately, people are often too small to understand what is really valuable. But Hashem runs the world, so although it may seem like things are being controlled by small, petty people, it's all part of His machinations. "Atazas Hashem hi sakum."

e Posted - 02 October 2000 13:39

If the guy really loves you, then your family doesn't matter. it is not your family he is marrying - it is you. but if you live in the chariedi world, love doesn't count-you only meet for like 2 hours, decide if your parents can afford a fault in Jerusalem,what your hechsher is and the "siman tov". Bashert at its best!!

MODERATOR Posted - 02 October 2000 13:46


The problem is that the guy will never get a chance to "love" her. Since he will only meet a girl if she is a potential marriage partner in the first place, he will not agree to see her to begin with.

You are misinformed about the way shiduchim work. The 2 hour thing in the Chareidi community is simply false.

e Posted - 02 October 2000 23:59

is it false?

Then how come i know of many cases personally? Ok, maybe not 2 hours, try 2 days! even better. I find the whole "shidduch" very very corrupt and dishonest and totally superficial.

MODERATOR Posted - 03 October 2000 0:02


Unless you are referring to very Chassidish families, as opposed to regular Chareidi, there must be more to the stories you are aware of than you know. In regular Yeshiva circles, shiduchim are not made in 2 days. Sorry.

Please tell us what you think is corrupt or superficial about shiduchim.

jj Posted - 05 October 2000 14:56

e, i dont chap whats bothering u about the shidduch zach, fakert, royv of yeshiva friends that i have thatr r married, it has always worked out givaldig, and the chassidish friends that i no also, and bsides, take a look at the goyishi or modernishi velt where they no each other 4 yrs, and look at the diff in divorce rate, im not saying by the frummi cirlcles its always fest, but alot more then by goyim zicher

e Posted - 05 October 2000 18:44

What I don't chap is how (fine, not 2 days) after a short amount of time ppl can now if they want to marry someone. and maybe the reason the divorce rate is low is b/c it is not an accepted thing to get divorced.

I have a relative who went thru' this and still is and she couldn't get a get for years b/c the guy didn't want to have a bad name. this is very personal and close to home, but maybe thats a reason.

I also don't get and understand how so much of shidduchim is dependent on money and criteria and yichus, ppl wont even meet unless they are 100%. and this relative of mine's husband came from great yichus and is chareid but turned out to be very evil.

MODERATOR Posted - 08 October 2000 17:15

When you go out with a guy who you "just meet," the typical chain of events is, first you meet, later you become acquaintances, later you become "just friends", later you get "feelings", (later you get into a fight,)then you end up going out.

So you're going out, but at that point you still have no idea if this guy is a potential husband. You don't know if your life goals are his, if his ideas for the furture are compatible with yours.

You may find out he wants a lot of kids or he wants to live in Israel or he doesn't want his wife to work, or if he wants a career in politics which you can't stand, or he wants to bring up his children more religious than you, or a hundred other things that will make marriage with this guy not an option.

But you're going out anyway. After you consider the possibility of marrying him, then you will start thinking about marriage.

But if you met through a shiduch, you would have half you work done for you already, because these issues - the ones that you can know even before you go out - are all settled before you meet the guy. If it can't work out, you will not meet him in the first place.

If you do meet him, the life goals, family, future plans-issues are all taken care of. You meet the guy knowing that his life can be your life, and the only thing left to know is if you and he want each other personally.

So you're already 5 steps ahead with a shiduch date, if it's done the way it is supposed to. And since you have already dealt with so many issues that non-Shiduch dating couples need to deal with later, the dating process is a lot quicker.

When you go out with a guy you just meet, you can easily end up with "feelings" that will just lead to heartache since you have no way of knowing whether the guy you are developing feelings for is compatible spouse-wise or not. So often girls (and guys) end up going out with someone who they just meet and then they are torn because they find out something incompatible about the other person and now they either give up something they always wanted in life or dump him and cry.

It makes much more sense, that before you enter into a relationship with someone, that it have at least has a chance of going somewhere.

smile4me Posted - 05 March 2002 18:37

Moderator, i know this will sound weird cuz I'm only 13, but i still get worried-my parents are divorced & I'm scared no one will wanna get married to me. (besides 4 the fact that I'm scared 2 get married cuz of what happened 2 my parents!)

MY mother keeps telling me that if the man wouldn't wanna go out w/ me, then he's not the right guy, but thats not true! And my brother has ADD & he started going to petach last week! & they look at your siblings, right?

So is there ANY chance of me getting married? Ok, I didn't mean it like that, i know I'll probably have a date but WHY CANT I BE JUDGED for MYSELF & NOT MY PARENTS?!

zviD Posted - 05 March 2002 18:37

Hi, i was wondering- I am 17 and i have fairly serious machshovus, -and it has been mentioned a few times by various ppl,- that I may marry a certain girl (who is currently 16) - obviously nothing has been spoken about at all seriously, but we both know and like each other - is there any heter for me to speak to her occasionally- given the situation etc- thanks.

ps i am NOT just looking for any dodgy heter so I can flirt!!

MODERATOR Posted - 05 March 2002 18:50


I will not try to fool you - there are definitely people out there who will not consider you for a shidduch because your parents are divorced. But there are enough people to whom it will not matter. Nowadays this matters less than it did let's say 10 years ago, and it will matter even less in 5 years from now.

Coming from divorced parents is not one of those issues that keeps girls from getting married. I have seen my friends, the children of my friends, and the friends of my children get married within the normal, reasonable amount of time, who were from broken homes. It will be an issue by some people, but not nearly so great an issue that you should think c"v that it will put you in a desperate situation.

Please understand that there are people out there who will not consider you if you (a) don't have money (b) aren't gorgeous (c) are the daughter of Baalei Teshuva ... ad infinitum.

You have no idea what kind of questions people ask regarding shiduchim. I have been told of people being asked if the family uses cloth or plastic tablecloths on Shabbos; if the boy learns Birkas Shmuels or not (it's a certain sefer learned in Yeshivos); if the little sister is a member of NCSY; etc. etc. etc.

But not everyone is like that. Don't worry. You'll get your shiduch. There are sooo many people out there, including tons who will judge you based on what you are, not on what happened to your parents' marriage.

As far as you being in danger of getting divorced because your parents did, its not true. Your marriage is up to you, not your parents. In fact, you may be more careful to maintain sholom bayis than someone from a 2-parent home because of your experience. In and of itself, the fact that your parents got divorced does not mean that your chances of doing so are greater. It depends how you deal with it. And the fact that you want so much not to end up like them is a good sign in that respect.

MODERATOR Posted - 05 March 2002 18:54


You must be from England. Americans don't know what "dodgy" means ( = "tricky" in Brittish slang).

No. You have no heter. Unless your talking to her is to check her out to see if you wanna get engaged to her. If you're not ready to get engaged to her now, you have no reason to talk to her now. Especially if she has no idea that the conversations between you two are for the purpose of you seeing if you want to marry her.

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