TEEN ISSUES-----wearing makeup

shannny Posted - 23 April 2001 15:50

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Is it wrong for a teenage girl to wear makeup?

MODERATOR Posted - 23 April 2001 16:33

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Depends what age, what community, and what kind of makeup.

When we say something is "good looking" it means different things in different contexts. When we say "That's a beautiful mountain", "beautiful" means "majestic"; a "beautiful deer" means graceful; a beautiful lion "means powerful and royal"; a "beautiful slapshot" means "fast and hard"; a "beautiful computer" means "sleek and modernistic".

When we say "a beautiful woman", we don’t mean she looks like a space ship, like we would mean when we say the new Panasonic boon box is a "beautiful machine."

We mean one thing: This woman is attractive to men.

The things that make women "beautiful", including being young-looking, are those things that attract men to them. Logically, there is nothing more beautiful about a young woman than an old woman, considering that an old woman represents wisdom, experience, accomplishment, and honor. But she's not as attractive to men.

And, it is also a fact: Makeup is designed to make girls more attractive to men. It makes your eyes bigger than they really are, your lips redder, your cheekbones higher, and to hide various physical imperfections.

For a girl to say "I am not interested in looking attractive to men; Im just interested in looking beautiful", she is contradicting herself.

Now there’s nothing wrong with a woman being beautiful, including attractive to men. It’s the way Hashem made her. But now the question is, is there anything wrong with a teenage girl artificially enhancing her looks in a way that all that changed is now she is more attractive to men.

Is it right for a 15 year old to do that?

Obviously not. But the problem is, in today's secular society, women have become objectified to the point where it is considered almost weird not to wear makeup, even at age 15, since it is soooooo a part of secular society that girls are expected to want to attract guys.

That’s why guys don’t wear makeup. Seriously. Makeup would make men more attractive to women and movie stars always wear makeup on the set. And when you see a picture of a celebrity caught on the street without his makeup, he definitely looks much more blah.

But because society, for whatever reason, emphasizes looks more by women than men and so women are expected to be "look" perfect, while men can still get away by being judged by their "attitude".

But whatever. So really, girls have no reason to wear makeup until they’re of marriageable age, after which they indeed would like to look more attractive to men. Otherwise, it doesn’t accomplish anything, except make the girl more comfortable in a society that declared that sexiness is "normal attire" for women. Unfortunately, we Yidden cannot accommodate that kind of societal demands. We have our own society.

We hope. So here's the story: If a girl is living in a Torah society she has zero reason to wear makeup until she’s ready to start attracting guys. If she’s living among a very secular society, I would not pick this as my battle. If she has the guts and the strength to walk around different than everyone else, then more strength to her! If not, I would definitely not force such a rule in a community where every 15 year old girl is walking around with makeup. You have to know where your people are holding.

ptgard2281 Posted - 23 April 2001 22:07

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That's not true, though. Girls do have reasons other than to impress guys. What about girls who lack self confidence or feel like they are ugly? What about those who are going somewhere to make an impression for a job interview? I mean, there are dozens of reasons other than to impress the guys. They should viably be allowed to wear makeup.

MODERATOR Posted - 23 April 2001 22:12

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I didn’t say the motivation of the girls is to impress guys. I said the definition of beauty, in the sense that make-up makes them beautiful, is that they are more successful in impressing guys.

So if a girl feels ugly without makeup and pretty with makeup, and therefore she feels "bad" about herself, it means that unless she has the ability to attract guys she will feel bad about herself. This is true because objectively, the only thing the makeup did for her was give her that ability.

It did not make her look wiser, more experienced, a better person, etc., all of which could define "prettiness". The problem is not her intention but her perspective, that being able to artificially enhance your face so that you can attract guys (that’s all makeup does) makes you feel better.

The solution is for her to get a perspective on what ought to make a person feel good and what’s "hevel hevolim".

The job interview may be a legitimate reason to wear makeup, depending on the situation, the age of the girl, etc. But that’s not what these schools who prohibit makeup are talking about.

shannny Posted - 24 April 2001 14:17

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Do you really think that girls wear makeup to impress guys, b/c that sure seems like what you're saying? There's no isur in looking good and that basically what a girl is trying to do when she wears makeup. Lets say a girl go to an all girls camp, is it then permissible to wear makeup?

MODERATOR Posted - 24 April 2001 14:53

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No, that’s not what Im saying. Im NOT saying that the reason girls wear makeup is to impress guys. No, no, no.

I agree with you that girls wear makeup to look good.

But the question is, what kind of "good looks" does makeup give a girl, because there are many different kinds of "good looks".

A lion who "looks good" means powerful, or majestic. A skinny lion does NOT look good.

A rabbi who "looks good" means a Hadras Panim that makes him appear to be a Tzadik. A rabbi's "looks" are enhanced, let's say, with a long flowing beard.

A mountain that "looks good" means awe inspiring and tremendous. A petite mountain is a loser, looks-wise.

So "good looks" can mean many things. What does it mean when we say a girl all made up is more "good looking" than a girl with a bare face?

Majestic? Powerful? Awe inspiring? No.

How about wise? Experienced? She looks more like a baalas midos? Also no.

What exactly does makeup enhance about your looks? Specifically?

There’s only one thing makeup makes you look: More attractive to guys. Not richer, not smarter, not even healthier (on the contrary - nowadays, the minimal-to-no-makeup look is considered healthy, like on the cover of those herbal magazines).

It makes you look sexier, that’s all.

Now when girls put on makeup, they don’t think about this, because it’s so ingrained in their heads that makeup somehow makes you "look better". And it does, in a way. Just now you know which way.

And that’s the problem. To secular society, that’s the definition of "good looking", that is, attractive to guys. So when a secular person says "I want to be more good looking", the default value of that statement means she wants to look more appealing to the opposite sex. They’re so into sex, the Goyim, that when they say "good looking" that’s what it means to them. And to them, there’s nothing wrong with that. That’s what their main reason for "looking good" is.

But should we share that definition of "good looking"? When a Bas Yisroel says "I want to improve my looks" that’s fine, but the question is, In what way do you want your looks to improve?

Again, the terms "pretty", "good looking", "better looking" are all ambiguous and mean something different when referring to different things.

So what does it mean when referring to you?

If makeup is what makes you look better, then looking better means one thing.

So the issue is not if it is assur to look good. The issue is what is there about high cheekbones that are "better looking" than lower ones? Is it healthier? Wiser? or more attractive to guys?

Same thing with shiny lips or blueish eyelids. What's "good looking" about blueish eyelids?

Only one thing.

No, I am not saying at all that girls want to attract guys so they put on makeup. Not at all. Especially since little girls like 8 and 9 think they "look good" in makeup too. But I am saying that we are so brainwashed by society's definition of "good looking" that we accept it without thinking about what it means and what looking good is actually good for.

There is nothing wrong with looking good. And there is nothing wrong with even being attractive to guys - that’s the way Hashem made you. But if you’re interested in Tznius it means not to go out of your way to make yourself even more attractive to guys by painting dark lines around your eyes and lips, painting your face to make believe your cheek bones are higher, and coloring your eyelids with unnatural color.

Lipstick emphasizes your lips, attracting attention to them, nothing more. Is that "good looking"? What do you think girls gain by attracting attention to their lips except if its guys' attention that they’re attracting? In what other context does attracting attention to your lips have any meaning at all?

That’s not why you’re doing it - you’re doing it because society convinced you that that's generically "good looking". But what society says is good-looking is not at all generic. It means one thing.

All Im asking is that you think of what these specific types of enhancements to your looks accomplishes. It does not make you look healthier or wiser or stronger or sweeter. And then understand what is DOES do to your looks. And even though that’s not what you intend, that’s what’s happening. And the reason we don’t realize it is because were so brainwashed by secular society - the part of it that’s so into sex - that we accept, without thinking, their philosophy of what "good looking" is.

alex123 Posted - 24 April 2001 16:53

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If men shouldn't marry woman based on their looks, why is there even a need to wear makeup when you reach a marriageable age? Hopefully, your husband is marrying you for who you are, not for your looks. So, why is makeup necessary then?

MODERATOR Posted - 24 April 2001 16:55

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A man should not marry an otherwise inappropriate girl on the basis of her looks, but he is surely allowed to seek out a good girl that is also attractive.

growinggirl Posted - 24 April 2001 17:16

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Ok- what about a bais yaakov girl who's goal is not to attract boys- but rather to look nice- because despite what you say- I still have to persist in saying that girls do want to look good- not just to attract guys. what about to look good for future shidduchim?

When ppl look at you now- they'll remember you- and don't say that looks don’t' matter- because when ppl look at shidduch prospects, they do take the physical aspects into consideration. and also- of "variable age" doesn't just have to be 18. ppl remember girls from when they are 15 and 16. I know because I’ve seen this.

MODERATOR Posted - 24 April 2001 17:19

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You probably wrote your post before I posted my last one. I didn’t say BY girls wear makeup to attract guys. The remembering about a shiduch thing is rare, and it can be more damaging if they remember that she wore makeup at 15. In any case, it’s not a reason to wear makeup now, because of the slight chance that in 4 years someone’s gonna remember seeing you.

shannny Posted - 24 April 2001 21:13

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You gave a very impressive answer, but didn’t answer the part about going to an all girl's camp where clearly you don’t want to look sexy or look good in the eyes of boys because there are none. You do it because it's fun to sometimes wear makeup and you want to also look good once in a while in the eyes of your peers. Can you wear makeup there? Also can you wear makeup to a chusunah? Everyone gets dressed up from chasunos and look good mainly for the kalah herself.

growinggirl Posted - 25 April 2001 18:37

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You're right--- I did write my reply before I read that last one- and thank you for clarifying because it makes sense. but does that mean that a girl who wants to do what is right should stop wearing makeup? what if it helps her self esteem?

MODERATOR Posted - 25 April 2001 18:57

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shanny,

In an all girls camp you go swimming in front of each other, so how can wearing makeup in front of each other be worse?

But the issue still remains that by thinking you look "better" in makeup, you are accepting the secular notion that how "good" you look depends on how much your looks can attract guys. Even if no guys are around, you’re still using that criterion as your yardstick for how good you look.

The idea is to reach the level where you will consider "good looking" to mean that you look happier and healthier, as opposed to "more attractive". Its a philosophy issue more than a Tznius issue, in an all-girl's camp.

The same thing applies to "growinggirl". If you want to do the "right thing", change your attitude about what "good looking" means. Then you wont want to wear makeup until the proper time.

ptgard2281 Posted - 25 April 2001 22:40

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Mod, you are giving a valid answer, but I think you are subjecting your answer to your own personal opinions. That could be your definition of beauty and what a girl does to make herself pretty, etc. As a female, though, I completely disagree -- I think that when I don't wear makeup in many situations, I look messy . . . the makeup helps put my face together just as a well tailored suit. If I am wearing a great suit without the makeup, I might look like I was too lazy to complete the outfit.

MODERATOR Posted - 25 April 2001 22:45

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Yeah but logically high cheekbones aren’t less "messy" than lower ones; and your eyelids certainly are not more "messy" because they don’t have blue stuff on them; your lips aren’t "messy" in their natural state.

I believe you really feel that way, but what you consider "messy" here is not consistent with "messy" everywhere else. Everywhere else it means dirty or disorganized or something like that, and a natural face is nothing of the sort. Its society that brainwashed us into thinking that without makeup we're messy, even though if you think of it logically it makes no sense.

The makeup manufacturers do NOT try to produce products that make you less "messy." They try to produce products that make you more desirable or noticeable to guys. Its because society is so messed up and commercialized that we equate "clean" with "desirable to the opposite sex".

TEEN ISSUES-----parents are not perfect

CC613 Posted - 10 January 2003 8:06

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I really need some help- last I overheard a conversation between my parents- I was in the other room- they didn't realize that I could hear them. From what I heard- my mother somehow found out that my father has been having some sort of close relationship via e-mail, and the telephone, with another woman- for 10 years!

And he was hiding it from my mother- it made me so confused, and mad- and I know this was so wrong, and I'll never do it again- but I went on my father's screename 2 nights later, to his e-mail personal filing cabinet -I wanted to tell myself that maybe it wasn’t true, maybe I heard wrong, maybe it wasn’t as big of a deal as I made it, and I opened up an e-mail, that he sent to her- (this woman)- it hurts me to write about- but its true- he wrote things he doesn’t like about my mother, he spoke about very inappropriate things- I closed the email right away I couldn’t look anymore

I cant believe that its the same father I know who wrote those things- but I know it is- there’s no way to prove otherwise- I know I should somehow judge him favorably but I cant- but no-one knows that in know this- and I have to pretend everything is normal- but I don’t know how to put on this act anymore!

How can I ever treat him with respect? How can I pretend things are normal when im screaming inside! he's such a hypocrite! How do I act normal again? I need some advice. .anyone know what to do. . ?

MODERATOR Posted - 10 January 2003 10:04

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He’s not a hypocrite. He’s a struggling human.

I am a father, and I was (and still am) a son. AND I know that its hard, in many ways, to accept your parents as regular people.

I find myself telling the same thing to parents - when they find out their children do XYZ wrong, they tell me they cant believe its their child, and they tend to freak out. Every kid knows that parents aren’t objective with their own children (or, at least, its much harder) and they get very emotionally involved when dealing with bad things the child does, and it becomes a mess.

I tell parents that if they want to know how to react to their children's sins, make believe that it was someone else's child who did it - your best friend's child, for example - and then decide how you would react.

Its the same thing here. Children are too emotionally involved with their parents to be objective.

So I'm giving you the same advice I would if you were the father telling me he found his son doing this: Make believe it wasn’t your father but someone else. You would say that everyone has a Yetzer Horah and that even though what he did was wrong, he’s still whoever he is, and he’s a struggling human like everyone else in the world, and we have to give him chizuk so that he can be strong to fight the Yetzer horah in the future.

If the shoe were on the other foot - if this were your friend who did this, and his father was freaking out - what would you tell the father?

You’d say "Your son is a human being, even though he is your son. This doesn’t change anything. We all have a Yetzer horah and its hard for you to look at your own son that way but its true."

Now tell that to yourself, as well.

I am telling you this as a rabbi, an adult, a father, and a son: Judging l'kaf zechus is not the point here - it's not judging at all. This has nothing to do with you. You can't put yourself in your fathers shoes. All people - adults included - go through struggles and they fall.

It's unfortunate when a son finds this out about his father, but because you accidentally did, you must try at least to be objective about it. Adults have a Yetzer Horah too - and this particular Yetzer is very strong - even (and maybe more so) in adults. "Seven times the Tzadik falls then he rises" - your father fell? Okay - he has 6 more times to go. He can still be a Tzadik.

I know its hard, as a child, to internalize this. And that’s why parents who are doctors do not operate on their own children, and things like that - its so hard to be objective here. But please try.

TEEN ISSUES-----what is a friend?

one Posted - 25 August 2000 9:07

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What does it mean to be a friend?

MODERATOR Posted - 27 August 2000 19:04

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A friend is someone that you can tell anything to, even if you did an aveirah.

That definition comes from Rav Michoel Furschlogger ZT"L, a student of the great Avnei Nezer, the son-in-law of the Kotzker Rebbe.

He figured that out because concepts are always defined by the context of the first place they appear in the Torah.

The first place the concept of "friend" appears in the Torah is with Yehuda and Chirah. "Chirah rayahu ha'adulami".

A friend therefore is someone who you can tell anything to without fear.

A friend is also someone who knows you. We see this from Choni Ham'agel, who, after rising from decades of sleep, was unable to convince people that he was really Choni Ha'Magel. So because people would not believe who he was, he could not have them as friends.

A friend, therefore, is someone who really knows who you are.

Friends can be good (chaver tov) or bad (chaver rah). Good friends use their friendship to help you do good things, and vice versa.

G-d made people such that we need friends. Without them, even the biggest Tzadik in the world lives in excruciating pain. Choni Ha'Magel thus prayed to Hashem that he should die. "Oh chavrusa oh misusa", he said. "Give me a friend, or give me death."

one Posted - 27 August 2000 21:00

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So what if you are put in a situation to help person, that you consider a friend. And they take what you have to offer and tell you certain things. And then decide that they are no longer interested. What is the giver supposed to do? Isn’t love, no matter what the kind built upon giving?

And once you give you can no longer take back the emotions that have built up.

I am in a strange situation now. I have a friend who I care a lot about. And I really don’t think that I am a bad influence on them... and Hashem obviously put I in the situation to know them and to help them... so why is the pain necessary? Why if I was helping do I get hurt? That doesn’t seem right.

MODERATOR Posted - 27 August 2000 21:16

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One of the things that make any relationship - including friends - so wonderful is the trust you have in each other. "Trust" means to take a risk on someone, to allow yourself to be put in danger, to give someone part of your life, sometimes big, sometimes very small but a part nonetheless, that they could harm if they so choose, yet all the while maintaining the confidence that they will not hurt you.

There is no trust without risk, and there is no friendship without trust.

Sometimes your trust may be violated, and you will be hurt. This happens, and when it does it's painful. it makes you think twice about having friends at all. I really do understand.

But listen, "one". It's worth it anyway. its worth having friends and trusting them even though somewhere down the line you're going to get burnt. Of course, you should not entrust your friendship to someone who is untrustworthy - you don't need pain if it could be avoided - but the very unwise thing to do would be to become a rock and an island and have no friends in order to feel no pain. It's not worth it.

Where relationships go, "better safe than sorry" does not hold true.

So get back in there. Find a friend and take a risk. The satisfaction you get from the relationship is worth the risk of getting hurt.

one Posted - 28 August 2000 14:01

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Thank you for the advice.

Yes I understand that friends are important. and B"H I have many meaningful relationships. the problem I suffer from now is that the one relationship that I put the most into seems to be hurting me the most. but it seems there is no escape, no matter what my "friend" does to pain me, whether it be comments, a breach of trust... I still care about her.

I feel I can’t hold it against her because if you love someone you don’t want them to have a bad "record". I really try hard. I offered all that I can and it was just unappreciated. it is not that I gave to get back, because I knew starting off that I wouldn’t get back as much as I gave, but I took the "risk" as you call it. someone helped me define what I was looking for though. I was looking for an acknowledgment that I gave. is that wrong?

I am not even speaking of giving physical entities. what about the emotions behind the things being given? What if I bought my friend a present that I wanted for myself but I rather that she had it. No matter what I try and do I cant stop thinking about it. am I supposed to cut off this relationship? Or continue surmising that I was put here for a reason.

I know that my friend needs someone to care, as does everyone else, but I never before had the problem that a person could dislike the fact that someone cares...

MODERATOR Posted - 28 August 2000 14:08

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Get out of there. Although during the course of your lifetime relationships will now and then cause you pain, that does not mean you have to stick around when that happens.

The Marahral writes that it is prohibited to do a chesed for someone who will not be grateful for it. Everyone deserves to be cut some slack for what appears to be insufficient appreciation for your chesed, but if she constantly disregards your chasodim, then get out. She's not a friend anyway.

one Posted - 28 August 2000 21:08

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Thank you, moderator, I think that deep down I know that you are right. but I still have uncertainty. cutting off this relationship will hurt ME. Because I have put in so much. And what if my friend just doesn’t know how to show that appreciation? What if it is just that? Maybe she really wants it but is embarrassed to admit it? I don’t know...

I think to myself that I should leave it alone for a while, I still daven for her, still love her, and if one day she decides that she is ready to be a friend, I will be ready with open arms. is this proper?

What if I know that she doesn’t have another friend quite like me in many ways, religiously, per se', and perhaps she is getting pressure from other "friends" to drop me or so to say. Is the regret I feel and love I feel just to punish me? or is it there for me to do something with it?

MODERATOR Posted - 01 September 2000 21:22

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It's up to you. As long as you know your options.

TEEN ISSUES-----drugs and alcohol

DORTY Posted - 19 June 2000 16:07

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With a drug such as marijuana... not dangerous. What exactly is the problem?

I understand this is a gateway drug... but I don't think that it necessarily leads to worse.

Besides, is there a Torah prohibition? I've heard that the kohanim used to use some form of "weed" in their service in the Bais Hamikdash... is this possible?

MODERATOR Posted - 29 June 2000 19:33

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Rav Moshe ZTL prohibits marijuana under the any or all of following Halachos:

1) It harms the health – even if it is not deadly.

2) It hinders your ability to do Mitzvos – I assume he means when you are high or addicted.

3) It causes pain to your parents

4) It is prohibited to cultivate “taavos” (desires, drives, urges, needs – something like that), and the person pursuing behavior that may lead to addiction violates this.

-- Igros Moshe, YD III:35

Weed in the Bais HaMikdosh? Nah.

You can check out all the reports of health problems etc. caused by marijuana at www.theantidrug.com.

But I often find that greater than the damage of addiction, is the social damage and psychological changes that kids smoking weed endure. Because it is illegal and unaccepted – whether it should or shouldn’t be – the dealers as well as the users are often low and unsavory characters. So kids get involved with the wrong crowd.

They also look at themselves differently. Somehow, our society looks at people who use drugs, even weed, in a different “category" as those who don’t (again, irregardless of whether they should not), and the kids who use begin to see themselves as “different” than they were before, as opposed to merely performing a different act (i.e. smoking up).

They begin to identify with a different social group than they did before, and begin to relate to people and groups that they would not relate to previously. They begin to look at themselves differently, and because they hear so much negative talk about drug users, their self-image is lowered. Whereas previously the guy was simply “Alex”, now he is “Alex who smokes weed”. Once he locks himself into that self-image, he is at risk for more than just fried brain cells.

Spice boy Posted - 01 January 2001 16:31

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Which is really worse for you - weed or alcohol?

MODERATOR Posted - 01 January 2001 16:55

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I once heard a good answer to this question" "It depends how you want to die."

Even one instance of alcohol poisoning can kill you. And there have been kids who have choked to death on their own vomit after getting drunk, passing out and then throwing up in their sleep. Long term use of alcohol can cause or exacerbate liver damage, brain damage, heart disease, and cancers.

Smoking pot regularly can cause mouth, throat, and lung cancers, and can double your chances of getting head and neck cancer.

More people die from alcohol abuse each year than from all drug abuse - of which weed is a small percentage, but that statistic, though often quoted, does not say much about which is more dangerous. Since more people abuse alcohol than drugs (alcohol is legal), of course more people will die from it. We need to know what percentage of users and abusers died from weed or alcohol, and I have not found data on that.

It is kind of weird, though, that you can go out to a bar and legally get yourself drunk as a dog, but if you smoke a joint you break the law...

21 Posted - 03 January 2001 20:43

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Earlier you posted the psak of R Moshe why marijuana is assur. The reasons he brought would also apply to alcohol, no?

MODERATOR Posted - 03 January 2001 22:38

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Well, in moderation it's not harmful to your health, it may not give your parents pain, it will not hinder your doing Mitzvos, so looks like an issur would only apply if you drink excessively.

TEEN ISSUES-----how to view role models

whatodo Posted - 11 April 2002 18:00

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Green, I was just thinking about your reply. Once upon a time there were these people. To me these people were perfect. I trusted them with everything I had. I thought they would do anything. And then something happened.

This thing made me realize that the only people in the world that I thought were perfect, were not. These people that were so great in my mind, they were bad. I guess that was the thing I was leaning on and they just took it from right under me. That is what makes me think that people are bad. I guess that God is the only one to rely on.

green Posted - 17 April 2002 5:05

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I totally agree with you on that. G-d is the only one you can really rely on. And the people who were in those positions apparently don't have a right to be.

MODERATOR Posted - 18 April 2002 15:50

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The problem is, adults often tend to "white wash" the acts of role models to their children and students, thinking that if they reveal the truth about someone, the child will no longer respect any role models, which is what I see happening here.

The reality is, there are good, bad, and in-between among adults - and among those who may be in role-model positions for you. There is no Mitzvah to make a Rasha into a Bainoni or a Bainoni into a Tzadik. At least, not to teenagers who are perfectly capable of discerning the inadequacies of their role models.

Rav Hutner's famous letter to a disillusioned student underscores this. He says we have a "terrible sickness" where we portray our role models as perfect angels, when in reality they are struggling human beings.

The Chofetz Chaim, for instance, was not born the Chofetz Chaim. He fought his Yetzer Horah hard and long in order to become what he became. There were times where the Yetzer Horah beat him, where he did speak Loshon Horah, where he was defeated, until, after X amount of time fighting in the trenches, he emerged victorious, and became the Chofetz Chaim.

And today's role models are not even on the level of the Chofetz Chaim. But that doesn’t mean they can’t be role models.

Whatodo, Green, I must tell you that we adults are human beings too. Even the good ones among us sometimes fall. But the thing that makes the good ones good, is that after they fall, they get up and continue to fight their Yetzer Horah, and even if they fall again, they get up and keep fighting. Eventually, they will win. But not always.

There are bad people, true, but just because an adult messed up once, which shattered your perfect-person image of him, does not necessarily disqualify him as a role model. On the contrary, you want to learn form him what to do in case of a defeat on the part of the Yetzer.

Punims Posted - 23 May 2002 17:53

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Why did Rav Hutner call that a 'sickness'? I guess it's wrong in the world we live in now, but wouldn't it be nice if everyone can have one role model that IS perfect?

I guess that's what G-d is.

But it is quite disappointing when you try to have role models and then sometimes they disappoint you in some action they do or something they said. It's so hard for a person to trust in someone and think 'at least someone in this world cares about me and knows what they're talking about' and then find out that they're wrong. Or not completely wrong, just that the role model is not perfect.

No moderator, this is not a hint to anything.. just explaining why people think of role models as perfect. It's a security blanket. Everyone wants someone perfect in their life to share things with.

And Whattodo, first of all, you sound like an amazing person, and I wish I knew you in the real world. You sound like someone who I would be able to learn a lot from. But also, I understand what you're saying about someone who learns a lot.

It can be so disappointing to grow up and suddenly become less innocent that Torah does not always make a person perfect. I too thought that was true, until I met 2 rabbis (no, not you moderator) who did things that I just never dreamed rabbis could do. It's the sad truth and worse when we wake up and see it. Sigh.

MODERATOR Posted - 23 May 2002 18:25

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Hashem is perfect, but humans are not. To attribute Hashem's characteristics to a human is messed up, but because it is also unhealthy for your soul, your mind, and locks you into an unrealistic perspective of things and sets you up for disappointment, it is called a sickness. It also, ironically, gives us an excuse NOT to learn from our role models, even as we worship them - that is, since they are perfect, we surely cannot emulate them! We can’t reach their level!

And we convince ourselves that our "admiration" for the role model somehow redeems us, because if we can’t be good, at least we admire those who are. Like the people who think that putting a sticker of the Chofetz Chaim on their telephone somehow reduces the severity of their speaking loshon horah. "At least I talk about not talking loshon horah all day" they think.

We end up vicariously living righteous lives through our worship (that’s what it is) of our role models, which alleviates to some extent the emptiness we feel for not living righteous lives ourselves.

Our role models are to be used not as distant objects of worship but as examples of what we can become. That only works if we admit their being like us in our struggle to attain what they have attained already. And what they constantly struggle to hold on to.

TEEN ISSUES-----expelling kids from yeshiva

qwert Posted - 01 August 2000 14:13

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When a yeshiva kicks out a kid, they are setting that kid a bad name. Everyone knows that that’s the kid that got kicked out of such and such's school. Once you are kicked out you are in trouble at home, and what school is going to want to accept that bad kid? So you're stuck, so by some school that's wants to save face, can ruin a girl's life.

By me, the school sends out spies (which is another story one day I would like to discuss) and someone said they saw this girl doing something, she was from a very frum and good family so you can imagine when her parents heard what kind of trouble she was in. She got expelled from school, and a couple of weeks later, they found out it wasn't her she was mistaken for someone else.

This girl was so depressed, and lost, and even if it was her, that is no way for a school to help. If anything it just turns you off more. So what's with this kicking out kids? I say you don't take what you can't handle, and once you accepted them they became your problem because there is a little of you behind them.

MODERATOR Posted - 01 August 2000 14:22

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In general, the only justification for throwing a kid out of school is if other kids are getting ruined because of him/her.

When a school "asks a sheailah' it is not enough. You can’t judge bain adam l'chaveiro with only hearing one side of the story. When there is a question of throwing a child out of the school, there should be a hearing from an impartial, qualified, knowledgeable Torah authority.

If a school tried to take away the livelihood form a teacher by firing them, the teacher has a right to call the school to a din Torah. Throwing out a child often does more damage to the child then making her look for another job. No Frum school who wants to do the right thing should have any objection to subjecting their actions to the scrutinizing view of Daas Torah.

Punims Posted - 02 August 2000 15:03

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Moderator, I understand what you are saying however... I know a lot of ppl who are kicked out of yeshiva and then go totally off of Judaism bec. being kicked out of yeshiva turned them off to Judaism. why do yeshivas do that? It hurts the kid and they're outlook on life so much. They're making a lot of Jewish children make the wrong decision.

If they think that the student is hurting the teacher or somebody... maybe they should take him/her out of the classroom environment, but it just hurts me to see so many ppl not care about anything Jewish just bec they got kicked out of school. It happened to my best friend too. She'll deny that it all came about from her getting kicked out of school but I think that’s where it all started from. what can we do about it?

MODERATOR Posted - 02 August 2000 15:14

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Not much. The seforim say that before Moshiach comes the world will be very messed up, including the Jewish world. We can only try our best to change what we can. I think the best thing you can do (not that there are many options) is to teach those who are kicked out - unfairly, or even fairly - not to be turned off by it.

Rabbi Freifeld's saying, "Don't judge religion by its practitioners" is important. Whenever kids are hurt by those they perceive to represent Torah, they are likely to take out their anger and frustration on Torah. We need to teach them that that is not what they want to do.

How do to this is a bit more involved. If you have any specific instances, we can deal with it together.

Punims Posted - 03 August 2000 12:41

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I do have a specific incident. my best friend got kicked out of a school that she really really loved and it was frum and everything. since then... she has been moving down in Judaism. she used to criticize me for doing small things behind my parents back, now she does that and so much worse. she actually doesn’t keep kosher anymore, shabbos and goes out with non-Jewish guys.

I want to help her but I can’t just sit and preach bec at this stage in her life she's so close-minded. if I even have Jewish music playing in the background when she calls, she'll hang up. if I mention anything Jewish to her, she'll just close her mind to it all. what can I do about it? She's my best friend and I don’t want to lose her to everything.

MODERATOR Posted - 04 August 2000 14:54

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Right now, you will not be able to "bring your friend back". However, you can maximize the chances of her coming back sooner or later if you just remain her friend. Close, deep, caring friend. Here's how that will help:

Your friend will reach many crossroads in her life. Some small and some major. Maybe she will get into trouble one day, the kind of trouble that will jolt her and maybe make her think, for about 5 seconds, of changing her life. Or maybe something will happen in her life that will make her think, for about 5 seconds, what life is all about.

That will happen. And when it does, you want to be the person she calls to talk to about it. You want to be the person who she knows she can call at 3:00 AM when she's in trouble. You want to be there when she is ready.

And she won't let you in then, unless you're there for her now, when she's not yet ready. So don't abandon her. Help her with her emotional state, and whatever else she needs in whatever way you can. This may take a long time. Years, perhaps. And there's something about this you should bear in mind:

DON'T BE HER FRIEND IN ORDER TO HELP HER. HELP HER BECAUSE YOU ARE HER FRIEND.

In other words, if you're gonna pretend to care about her cuz maybe you’ll be able to help her, it won’t work. You have to really care, really lose sleep over her plight, really really want to be there for her when she's in trouble.

If you really care about her for her, then you have a license to help her when she's ready.

It can be done.

qwert Posted - 10 August 2000 20:32

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Moderator you said after this girl or it could be any person in this situation gets hit in the head then we should be there for her/him, but what happens if it’s a fatal hit. I can imagine someone that dropped so fast like that girl, would have a lot of problems, and I don't know about this girl but I do know people that have taken drugs. what happens if it’s an OD? The school killed her, so first the school kills the kid mentally and then can cause physical harm. What gives a school a right to do that?

Also busha is equivalent to killing, well id be dead embarrassed to say I got kicked out of this school, maybe not to my close friends but to have that on my name that’s downright embarrassing and not fair.

And one more thing last yr right before school ended my principal came into the class and said I'm thinking about getting a new girl for your class next yr, and she said her name and someone thought they knew her and they were like what are you doing, well anyways this person got disaccepted and after we found out it was a different person totally.

They say you should preach what you teach, so I'd be scared to know what these schools are really trying to teach us

MODERATOR Posted - 11 August 2000 17:02

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qwert,

It is very unlikely that the first "hit" a kid sustains will be fatal. The way these things work, it's a slower progression than that, and she will need you way before she OD's. The kids you heard about who OD'ed did not do it suddenly. One was "on the streets" for years before he died, AND was hanging around with a known heroin addict and person of ill repute from whom he obtained the drugs that killed him. All of them, without exception, did not OD before a lengthy time period of being in need of help. Don't worry. You be there for your friend, and you will maximize the chances of her not being another victim of the streets.

qwert Posted - 14 August 2000 12:41

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But it’s a start, and a start to the wrong way so if schools say they care they should at least pretend they care.

I just found out that kid got kicked outta of my school (didn’t know her she’s 2 grades older) for listening to non Jewish music on a shabbaton. Basically my whole school listens to non Jewish music on premises and they just know how to hide it, and also it’s not the worse thing in the world.

Ok maybe detention and an assignment, but this kid got kicked out and now she is not in a bais yaakov anymore were prob lucky she’s still frum, but she’s barely there because she’s in a school where everything’s ok.

Now what excuse does a school have for kicking out a 9th grader for listening to radio, and I highly doubt she did anything because she was looking to strive higher, she came from a modern family, but the principal knew that and took that chance, so now what did the school accomplish?

All I see is that they made on girl lower and she coulda been higher yet, and other girls could’ve watched her and grown from her. in my old school they took in a kid that wanted to go to yeshiva and knew basically nothing, what was right what was wrong, and everyone tried to teach her and make her feel welcome, and at least me, I grew from that. and the school took a chance cuz from public school to bais yaakov... so I don’t understand my current school, like I said before they should not have taken what they can’t handle cuz after it becomes their prob

MODERATOR Posted - 14 August 2000 14:45

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You're right that although a school does not have a responsibility to take in any student, once they do take them in, they have a responsibility for his or her welfare. I have heard this in the name of the Chazon Ish, and have seen it written by Rabbi Shmuel Kaminetsky, the Rosh Yeshiva of Philadelphia.

I can't defend this school's actions, qwert, and it wouldn't even be fair, not to your friend or the school, for me to try, since you can't judge a situation without hearing everyone's version of the story.

But there is no question that schools need to learn better how to handle problems that their students have. It's not their fault that they can't handle it, it's just that nobody told them to expect these problems. So now we have teachers and schools that are greatly unprepared for what is happening now.

There are schools that are trying, but the schools do not exist in a vacuum, meaning, the way they do things is not only the result of the way they believe things should be done, but the way the community wants them to do things. They need, whether we like it or not (and we do not!) the financial support of people who have no idea what education is about, and the support of parents who whether we like it or not (and we do not!) who have no idea what education is about, or else nobody will send their kids to the school.

Therefore what emerges is that the schools need the approval of people who have cannot tell the difference between their toes and their elbows, education-wise. This is sick, but it is reality.

Often, a school is forced into a position that if they do the right thing, they will suffer, because what is right isn't necessarily what is popular with the parent body or the supporters.

qwert Posted - 15 August 2000 12:56

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But what the parent body and the supporters don’t realize is what if it was their child, what if they're kid was about to be kicked for the stupidest reason or something bigger, everything can be helped there are ways, schools should know ways that’s their job, and instead of the supporters and parent body making a kid feel like crap why don’t they try to help and be true parent body and supporters, and helping kids instead of turning more off than on. Do you know that when a kid gets kicked out of school not only do they feel resentment but so do their friends.

MODERATOR Posted - 15 August 2000 16:29

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qwert, you are correct. Unfortunately, the lives of every student in the school is sometimes in the hands of every Tom, Dick and Harry on the street who can put pressure on a school as a parent, supporter, or politician to make decisions that are in their own interest rather than the interest of the lives of the students.

qwert Posted - 16 August 2000 15:07

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So why must the school listen, isn’t the school around to help the children. if this is all they care about, and these kicked out kids that end up in public school must be better off

MODERATOR Posted - 16 August 2000 17:34

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Well, sometimes the school must listen because if it doesn't there will be no more school, and the students will not be better off then. Sometimes the school indeed should not listen. (Adults can succumb to peer pressure, too.)

But one thing is certain, even though, as rys said, we live in an imperfect world, the yeshivas are the least messed up of all educational systems out there. Compared to public school, the yeshivos are Gan Eden.

qwert Posted - 01 September 2000 6:15

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So basically what your saying is the schools excuse is that they havta listen to their biggest supporters, the richest ones and do wtvr they say. That is so wrong. My family is well off, and my principal treats me dif than those who aren’t, and I think that’s so wrong. I don’t do it, so why should they?

Aren’t they supposed be our role models, someone to look up to, when their sick twisted ppl. If I only hung out with my well off friends I wouldn’t have some amazing friends that I have now, that kept me on the derech and made me rise higher. So you know for a change the schools should learn from the student’s cuz their not setting a good example, at all.

MODERATOR Posted - 01 September 2000 21:37

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You're right, it is wrong. But who's to blame? Not just the schools. I am reprinting here an article I wrote a number of years ago. The newspaper referred to in the article in based in London, England:

Passing the Parcel Revisited:
How to Change the System

The problem of Orthodox children disenfranchised from our community because Yeshivos will not accept them has attained frightening proportions.

To be sure, the predicament is one of elitism, but blame for it cannot be placed exclusively on our Mosdos HaTorah. The letters to the editor in latest edition of the Jewish Tribune correctly identified the culprits in many cases to be unreasonable and heartless parents who pressure schools into not admitting what they so cruelly refer to as nebuch cases. But the imprint of the community on the Yeshivos’ admissions standards is more complex, and much more subtle, than that.

An elitist policy is of no value to a school unless elite schools are subject to superior reputations. These reputations are created not by the school itself, but by the community at large. Curiously - and this is where the community’s share in the problem lies - the communal ooh’s and ahh’s at the aristocracy of an elite student body is no wise diminished by the fact that said aristocracy was achieved by skewering the chances of less elite students for a quality Yeshiva education.

Rejection is not an experience to be taken lightly. Rav Chaim Shmuelevitz (Sichos Mussar) writes that rejection is the most painful of experiences, and it is that which was responsible for the creation of our arch enemy, Amalek. The pain that created evil incarnate is what we are today subjecting 12 and 13 year old children to.

A Yeshiva today, writes Rav Yitzchok Hutner (Pachad Yitzchok, letters, 75) is like Noach’s teivah. It is not a place of spiritual luxury, but a life-preserving shelter from the unrelenting tidal wave of societal tumah.

Depositing a young boy outside of the Yeshiva is tantamount to making him walk the plank. Sometimes it may be necessary, but how many taaneisim, how much tehillim, and how much ruthlessly objective soul searching must accompany the ultimate judgment made regularly by menahalim of mi yichyeh umi yamus?

What is the fate of a boy without a Yeshiva? Our experience shows that in as short as five weeks on the street, a young ben Torah can turn into a mechalel Shabbos. Stripped of his pride and self-esteem, hurting with the searing pain of rejection, he finds the acceptance and the warmth he suddenly aches for among the denizens of the street. Through the haze of his confusion and pain, he sees in the degrading counterculture of rebellion the saving of his pride, his only hope of acceptance, and the restoration of his shattered self-image.

It is these rejected Yiddishe neshomos, these nebuch cases, that the elitist institutions should be thanking for their cream of the crop reputations - for their souls were the coin with which those reputations were purchased.

And so there is something quite amiss in a society that bestows the adoration of nobility to an institution that it believes made its way to the top by depositing Jewish children on the street, there to have their potentials slowly whittled away by an environment of the basest order.

Elitism born out of a desire to garner the foremost reputation can only exist if we, the community, endow elitists with the foremost reputation.

We can change the system.

This is how:

We need to shift the bearings of esteem to include those among us with the vision and the courage to save these beautiful neshomos. Those Rabbonim and Roshei Yeshiva who have taken it upon themselves to open their doors to discarded nebuch cases should be given kovod melochim. They should be placed on a pedestal and accorded the admiration and respect due to those who have a share in the salvation of a generation. Sarah Schenierer obtained the most honorable place in Jewish history for her vision and courage and action on behalf of the children of her generation. Today’s pioneers in Kiruv Kerovim should be accorded no less.

Prominent askonim must begin to consider it an honor to support institutions that do what is right rather than what is best for their reputation. It ought to be considered a privilege to be part of the saving of souls that these heroes are accomplishing. We, the community, need to create a climate where it is more advantageous for someone who is collecting money for a Yeshiva to say “We cater to all kinds of students,” than to say “We take only the best.”

We, the community, create our Yeshivos’ reputations, and we control which institutions are perceived as “superior.”

A Short Term Solution

Community involvement can work on another, more direct level as well, but one which demands the cooperation of the full spectrum of its leadership.
The problem of children being unfairly forced into public school or the streets can only exist if there is no accountability on the part of the school to an outside authority. As frum Jews, we all want to follow Daas Torah, but sometimes a vested interest can cause one to see things a bit less objectively than one should. A session with an objective Torah authority who hears both sides of the story would be a tremendous assistance for anyone - parent, rebbi, menahel, or businessman - who wants to do the right thing and is honest enough to realize that when the Torah says shochad yaaver einei pikchim, it applies to him, too. No good Jew should object to running his policies through the gauntlet of Daas Gedolei Torah.

However, it is not always sufficient for a parent or a menahel to just "ask a Sheailah." Sometimes the parent and the menahel will see the facts so differently that when they ask their individual shealos to their individual Rabbonim, you would not recognize that they were talking about the same case. Each side may accuse the other, rightly or wrongly, of having a negios - the parent's interest in the welfare of their child and the menahel's interest in maintaining his school's elite status.

Therefore, just as a rebbi can bring a school to a din Torah when he feels he was unfairly dismissed from his job, a parent should be able to bring a school to a din Torah when they feel their child was unfairly dismissed from his studies. Our community has the ability to

establish specially designated, perhaps even ad-hoc batei din of objective and capable authorities, where Daas Torah will decide each case on its own merits. This is why it can work:

If an institution should refuse to cooperate because they insist they are a "private enterprise", and not accountable to the Torah authorities of the community, then the community has a right to know this. Let the community, from whom the Yeshiva gets their funding, know that this Yeshiva declares itself not to be a community institution, but a private enterprise; serving the needs not of the community but the desires of its own administration; that it is not accountable to the gedolim of the community but rather to itself. This is the Yeshiva's own policy. A community has the right to know the hashkofos of the schools they are supporting. If this is the school's shitah, they ought not be ashamed of it.

One last note: I cannot overemphasize that it would be a crime to misconstrue the above information and mistakenly conclude that all or even most Yeshivos are forcing Jewish children into the streets. Yeshivos are the lifeblood of the Torah world. They are kodosh. Without them, all our children would chas v'sholom be swept away by the mabul. However, there are parents who must deal with such unfortunate cases, even one of which is way too many.