EMUNAH-----proofs and Hashem
laugh alot Posted - 03 November 2006 9:55
I am a BY girl and I fully believe that there is a G-d but I have a question - how do we know that that G-d is Hashem like the Muslims believe in a G-d why is there G-d wrong there is just one G-d so whatever u call it isn’t I just G-d is there a reason why we have to believe G-ds's name is Hashem?
MODERATOR Posted - 03 November 2006 12:35
I once explained this (reprinted below). You’re 100% right. That’s why we do not first identify Hashem then try to prove that He created the world. Rather, we prove there is a creator of the world - a First Cause, and whatever / whoever that First Cause is - whoever the creator of all reality is -- that is what we refer to as Hashem; that is Who we worship. As I explained elsewhere:
Since we can easily prove that there was indeed a first cause – because an infinite chain of causes in the past is absurd * - we know clearly that:
There exists a first entity, that was not created but always existed, and always will exist, that caused everything else to come into being,
Call this entity whatever you like. This entity is what we worship. This is what we refer to as Hashem Yisborach. In fact, according to the Ran, the Mitzvah to believe in Hashem is not to believe that Hashem exists. Rather, it is to believe that the First Cause described above is in fact the entity that took us out of
This is what it means, the Ran says, by “Anochi Hashem Elokecha asher hotzaisicha”, meaning if Hashem is introducing Himself to us, kivyachol, and saying: “You all know of the entity that is First Cause, Well, I, Who brought you out of Egypt, I am that same First Cause that you always knew existed”.
This is why the Rishonim, including the Rambam and Ramban, when they discuss the Mitzvah of Emunah, first describe Hashem as an “entity” that created the world and maintains it, and is the cause of all existence, and then, afterwards, they say “This entity is Hashem.”
Even though they don’t agree with the Ran regarding the technicalities of the obligation of Emunah, they all agree that the idea of a First Cause that cannot die or cannot change etc is simple logic, and so they are saying that this First Cause that we all know exists – that is what we worship. That is what we cal Hashem, and that is what took us out of
There are Apikorsim who ask, how do you know that G-d created the world? Maybe it was the Spaghetti Monster?
The answer is, it is possible that the spaghetti monster created the planet earth, or people, but since the spaghetti monster is, presumably, a physical entity, or at the very least, an entity with certain attributes which makes him the spaghetti monster, then it cannot be he First Cause, who created all reality.
In other words - the spaghetti monster could not have created the world since he is part of the world. Simply put: If the spaghetti monster created the world, who created the spaghetti monster? There has to be a First Cause at the end of the chain, with no attributes or limitations at all.
Call that First Cause whatever you want --- Jews refer to it as Hashem.
MODERATOR Posted - 03 November 2006 12:37
03,
You're wrong but I posted it anyway. Of course there’s proof to Hashem’s existence. Please see the Proofs to the Torah forum, and also the "G-d" forums.
wannabe Posted - 02 April 2007 1:35
033USJ,
That's not only wrong as Moderator said, but very dangerous to tell people. I really hope that you haven't said this to anyone beyond the people at this thread, but if you have, you might want to go back to them and clarify - I'm serious. People could literally be turned off completely by the idea that Yiddishkeit is about blind faith, especially baalei teshuva from that side of the spectrum or ppl looking for an excuse to go off the derech from the other side.
yeah ok Posted - 28 June 2007 13:13
Moderator: I don’t understand what you’re saying here, are you saying that since the Flying Spaghetti Monster (I assume that you're referring to him) has aspects similar to existence it has to have been created by something outside of existence? Doesn’t it say that Hashem created us in His image?
MODERATOR Posted - 28 June 2007 14:11
No, that’s not what I am saying.
First, Hashem did not literally create anything in His image. He has no image. The posuk is not literal. It means we have Free Will.
Second, anything that came into existence had to have a reason, i.e. a cause, that made it come into existence because things don’t happen without causes. Any thing subject to time had to have come into existence because it could not have already existed forever, since forever, which means an infinite elapsing of time, could not have already happened (you can never reach infinity).
Therefore, since Mr. Spaghetti monster is physical, thus subject to time and space, it had to have come into existence and had a cause. Please see the "G-d" forum for elaboration on this.
A more sophisticated version of the above argument (though the above is valid in itself) is that anything that could have possibly not existed must have had a reason (i.e. cause) that it happens to exist as opposed to not exist. Anything that is physical (i.e. composite, comprised of multiple characteristics, such as all physical things are) could theoretically not have existed and therefore need a cause that facilitated their existence.
The only thing that would not need a cause is what we call in Hebrew a "muchrach hametzius" or a "mechuyav hametzius" meaning something that could never have not existed even theoretically. its a totally diff type of existence than what we are used to. This entity is the cause of all else. This is what we call "G-d."
MODERATOR Posted - 28 June 2007 15:22
No, that’s not what I'm saying.
What I'm saying is:
a) something that came into existence had to have a reason that caused it to come into existence. And
b) anything that exists and is subject to time had to be here for a finite amount of time because it is impossible to have existed already for an infinite amount of time, since an infinite amount of time would never end, and the past has ended.
c) if something is physical - i.e. subject to space, which Spaghetti monster is, then it is subject to time, since you can’t have space without time.
c) Therefore, Mr. Spaghetti monster had to have a cause that brought it into existence
d) the only cause that could have caused time is something outside of time - and therefore outside of space as well.
There’s tons of variation on this, all valid. Another, more sophisticated version is:
a) anything that could have not existed has to have a reason that it exists as opposed to not existing
b) therefore, Spaghetti guy, since theoretically he could have been non-existent, needs a cause that determined he should be in existence as opposed to non-existent.
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