HASHKOFO-----ikrim and tinok sh'nishba 2
21 Posted - 22 January 2001 21:46
Moderater, could you please elaborate, perhaps in a different thread, about who is and who is not considered a tinuk shenishba and whether they will be punished when moshiach comes and not merit tchiyas hameysim.
I saw an interesting meshech chochma in bo where he says that by a mitzvas lo sasai you can rely on a chazaka (e.g. eruv that it's kosher) and if something happens ones rachmana patrei but by a mitzvas esai even though ones rachmana patrei you still do not get reward for doing the mitzvah (e.g. tefillin)
Acc. to this all tinok shenishbas are in trouble! I was wondering if there are differing opinions on this.
TIA
MODERATOR Posted - 29 January 2001 23:13
You're right - the idea of Ones Lav K'man D’Avid Dami - that exemption cannot give one credit for that which he never did - is from Chazal. The Meshach Chochmah was merely repeating it. It's true that a Tinok Shnishbah cannot receive credit for what he did not do, just as he cannot receive punishment for that which he did not know. Techiyas HaMeisim, which is the ultimate reward for out deeds, is not possible without the merit of Torah. Someone who does not have that merit cannot get reward.
What constitutes Tinok Shenishbah is a matter of machlokes. Rav Shlomo Zalman Aurbach ZT"L once told me that as long as a person knows
(1) He is Jewish,
(2) He can be religious if eh chooses, and
(3) the government will not persecute him if he is, already puts him out of the category of Tinok Shnishbah.
According to him, the many non-religious Jews are not tinokos shenishbu. Others have different guidelines.
In any case, if Hashem made someone a Tinok Shnishbah in a way that they could never become frum, then that's min hashamayim. Whatever Hashem does is for the best. Some people are made Jews, some Goyim; some not even human but animal mineral or vegetable.
Whatever Hashem does to and with a person, so long as it is outside of the realm of his Bechirah is always Min Hashamayim. Why Hashem made certain people Jews and others Goyim, and still others rocks or squirrels as opposed to people, or why Hashem made someone a Tinok Shnishbah or not is all part of His master plan.
mo Posted - 28 April 2004 15:32
"What constitutes Tinok Shenishbah is a matter of machlokes. Rav Shlomo Zalman Aurbach ZT"L once told me that as long as a person knows (1) he is Jewish, (2) he can be religious if eh chooses, and (3) the government will not persecute him if he is, already puts him out of the category of Tinok SHnishbah. According to him, the many non-religious Jews are not tinokos shenishbu. "
Did he elaborate? Does it mean he hold not like Rambam?
I mean people who were educated to be non-religious or anti-Torah seem to be like ben-mumeres or karaoim?
Also can you please explain if tinokos shenisbu who don’t have a chelek in the World to come? Will go to Gehinom?
If yes - I don’t understand your explanation that it was Hashem’s will to create them tinokois shenishbu.
MODERATOR Posted - 28 April 2004 16:01
You missed what I said:
It's true that a Tinok SHnishbah cannot receive credit for what he did not do, just as he cannot receive punishment for that which he did not know
He doesn’t go to gehenom - he can’t get punished - but he doesn’t go to gan
As Rav Chaim Brisker said: "nebach a apikores iz oich a apikores."
Rav Shlomo Zalman isn’t a contradiction to the Rambam. Everybody has an obligation to be objective and understand that they have an obligation to seek the truth. Dishonesty to yourself is not something you need the torah to tell you not to do.
From that point on, it depends: If they are taught stuff that is too tricky for them to disprove and also is able to provide to a reasonable person, a level of comfort that he indeed has found the truth, then that is a tinok shenishba.
The Karaim, and others like them are in this category. It’s not easy for them to know that the Karaite teachings are false, and that there is a Torah out there that is better. But today these non-frum Jews are not taught anything that gives them an excuse. Rav Shlomo Zalman is saying that, if the conditions that he described exist, they have a moral responsibility to seek the truth and find the torah at the end of the tunnel.
stwexley Posted - 14 May 2004 13:59
Can a tinok shenishbe get sachar for good things he did such as being honest, helping others etc. even though what he did had nothing to do with torah belief?
MODERATOR Posted - 14 May 2004 14:01
If someone does not believe in G-d then his Mitzvos are not Mitzvos - in order for there to exist a Mitzvah, a commandment, there has to be a Metzaveh - a commander. Thus, if someone who doesn’t believe in Hashem does a Mitzvah, it is as if they did the Mitzvah by "accident" (misasek) and it doesn’t count.
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