LUBAVITCH-----yechi? 5
lub Posted - 14 February 2001 5:29
Why is looking into the sefer of the Lubavitcher Rebbe for a siman as to what to do in a certain situation any worse than what Rav and other Amoraim did as mentioned in chulin 95b?
MODERATOR Posted - 15 February 2001 16:58
lub,
There is no connection between this and Chulin 95b. Those who use the Rebbe’s writings as a siman use the Rebbe’s writings only - no other method like throwing dice or flipping coins - and they only started this after the Rebbe was niftar, because they are not randomly looking for some siman form Hashem but rather are communicating with the Rebbe somehow.
Second, the Meforshim explain that the simanim in Chulin 95b do not c"v, give people advice on what to do, nor do they rely on them. Rather, they are mere simanim of confirmation to an already made decision. There are also meforshim who explain that these simanim worked like Eilezer's, who really relied on his Tefilos, and this siman was a confirmation that the Tefilah was answered.
There are numerous other explanations in the Meforshim there - check out the Ain Yaakov - and NONE of them c"v say that random signs are an appropriate way for us to make decisions - in fact, that is prohibited. And nobody says that you can communicate with a dead person by randomly opening his Sefer.
Maidel123 Posted - 26 March 2001 18:47
First of all, Lubavitch is not Avodah zara. The truth is, ANYTHING can be Avodah zara; it depends on how it is used.
Sure, there are people who "forget" that there is an Abishter above all, but that doesn't mean that Lubavitch preaches ignoring the Abishter and instead worshipping the Rebbe.
I do not doubt that there are people who "abuse" the system, so to speak, but that is not fair to the rest of us that the holy Chabad chassidus should get a bad name because of some people that have missed the point. Such ideas are not Chabad Chassidus, they're idiocy.
It's the same thing as, for example, saying that all Skverer Chassidim are money launderers and bribed President Clinton for pardons. Of course, everyone thinks that THAT is stereotyping and other such terrible things, but calling Lubavitchers C"V ovdei avoda zara is perfectly fine, because that's what we are, right?
Before people send in such posts, I think they should think it through...since it does constitute lashon hara, and it is very difficult to ask mechila of an entire group of people, and of the seven generations of Rebbes who fought their entire lives to make Chabad as beautiful and holy as it is.
And PLEASE, stop calling us C"V Christians. I know Christians personally, and our beliefs are not similar in any way. If not for the sake of Ahavas Yisrael, I beg you to stop this for the sake of our holy Rebbes, who surely are crying in Heaven at the way their Chassidus is being treated down here.
With wishes that this Nissan, the month of geula, we should be zoche to greet Moshiach and the geula.
MODERATOR Posted - 26 March 2001 18:54
Maidel,
#1) Nobody is treating Chabad Chasidus in any way whatsoever. The discussion is certain Chasidim. It has been mentioned many times that these Lubavitchers are not following the Tanya or Chabad Chasidus at all, despite their insistence to the contrary. Please do not put words in the mouths of others.
#2) If there were Skvere Chasidim who would be telling the world that it is a Mitzvah to launder money, we should all tell people that they are liars. And if they said that Skverere Chasidus says so, we should tell people that they are even bigger liars.
Therefore, by explaining that today's Meshichistim are NOT following the Torah or Chabad Chasidus we are defending the honor of the Torah and Chabad.
#3) Nobody is calling you a Christian. Please read the posts again.
Maidel123 Posted - 27 March 2001 17:01
I have felt that people most certainly are referring to Chabad Chassidus as a whole, since no one is saying 'certain Lubavitchers' but rather 'them' and 'Lubavs' and other such generalizations. I am one of 'them' and I am a 'Lubav.'
I feel like I am being included, along with every other Lubavitcher on the face of the planet, in a group of potential ovdei avoda zara, c'v.
Additionally, there have been many hurtful comments made that have indeed called Lubavitch 'too close to Christianity for comfort' or 'borderline Christianity,' so please don't tell me that I misread the posts.
With wishes for a speedy redemption and the greeting Moshiach Tzidkeinu.
MODERATOR Posted - 27 March 2001 18:09
OK Maidel, so let's set the record straight:
1) Those who think (a) the Rebbe is alive, (b) the Rebbe is Moshiach, and those who (c) do none of the above but think it is OK to do so, is what is being discussed here.
2) What is not being discussed is Chabad Chassidus, meaning, the teachings of Rav Schneur Zalman of Liozna ZT"L, the Baal HaTanya.
3) It is the general belief among Lubavitcher Chasidim that they are currently following Chabad Chasidus as described in #2 above. However, just because someone calls himself a Lubavitcher Chosid does NOT mean that the "Chasidus" he is practicing today has anything to do with classic Lubavitch Chasidus. The Baal HaTanya would have been the biggest misnagid to this Moshiach/Yechi stuff if he'd be alive today. Therefore, pointing out the misbegotten beliefs of many contemporary Lubavitcher Chasidim does NOT in any way imply anything about Chabad Chasidus.
In regard to the last point, I have earlier quoted a letter from Rav Shach shlita stating that he would gladly allow his students in his Yeshiva to learn Tanya, but NOT as taught by today's Lubavitcher Chasidim, because despite the label, they are NOT practicing Chabad Chasidus at all.
Are we on the same page now?
rivne Posted - 27 March 2001 21:50
I am sorry I am Lubavitch and just b/c some ppl say the Rebbe is alive it doesn’t mean we all do and besides he is Alive spiritually and Tzadik who leaves this world is still here beruchniyus.
And the Rebbe is moshiach and your just jealous and that’s why we you are so anti Lubavitch-- the Rebbe is know worldly for being the biggest Tzadik performing unbelievable miracles even when he is not with us physically - there was a man no children very sad go to the ohel beg the rebbe have child and he had one there are man more countless stories of the rebbe helping people even though he is not here physically.
And I know you are just gonna knock me down b/c we are just teenagers and you are a rabbi but if you care at all you would recommend that all the questions on Lubavitch should be addressed to People of Lubavitch themselves, since they are obviously way more knowledgeable in this area than you are.
Be a bit more open-minded and you just may be very surprised. thanking you in advance for being big enough to post this, even though it is contrary to your personal views, moderator.
MODERATOR Posted - 27 March 2001 22:05
Actually, riv, a number of the Meshichist posts here came from adults, including rabbis. But feel free to invite anybody here who has something to contribute, whether teen or rabbi or Rebitzen or whatever. We're open to all customers.
DLDOP Posted - 05 April 2001 17:19
Your opinion that writing to the Rebbe's Igros is nothing, is not correct. You need a makor? In Melachim 2 perek 22 the story about finding a Sefer Torah, opened it etc.
V'Hachochom Ainuv B'Rosho
MODERATOR Posted - 05 April 2001 20:15
DL,
There is no such thing in our religion that you can communicate with your no-longer-alive Rebbe by opening his sefer and randomly turning to some page, then figuring out on your own what the no-longer-alive Rebbe wants to tell you.
Although if such a thing were legitimate, Jews throughout history and all over the world would have been doing it, the reality is that NEVER ANYWHERE has anyone ever thought to do such a thing, EVEVN in Chabad, until the Rebbe died. Which means clearly that this the concept here is communicating with the deceased Rebbe, else it would have been done while he was alive as well, AND other seforim could have and would have been used. It's just plain superstition concocted out of thin air.
As for your "source”, it is anything but. Over there, the King Yoshiah miraculously found the Sefer Torah that Moshe Rabbeinu himself wrote, hidden under a rock pile in the Bais HaMikdash although all Sifrei Torah were destroyed by Achaz. Others say that because of idol worship, the Jews had not found a single Sefer Torah in 71 years. Now, suddenly, they were shocked to find the Sefer that Moshe Rabbeinu himself wrote, in its designated place in the Kodesh HaKadashim.
But another strange thing: All Sifrei Torah in the Bais HaMikdash were always rolled to Bereishis before being put away. Miraculously, this Sefer Torah was not. Instead, it was rolled to the punishments that will happen to the Jews when they do not keep the Torah.
Yoshia was shocked at the unlikely finding of this particular Torah - of any Torah at all - and the strange place to which it was opened. He took these unnatural occurrences as a sign from Hashem, and tore his clothes. He immediately consulted the prophet Chuldah for guidance and assistance.
Chuldah said: This sign is no coincidence, but rather a real sign from Hashem (Abarbanel), which means that even Yoshia needed confirmation from a Navi for what he figured out on his own. "So says Hashem," she says. "Your interpretation of the message was correct". There was a need for a special prophecy telling Yoshia he was right.
And from that story you want to prove that (a) every Tom Dick and Harry in the street can (b) randomly open the rebbes' letters and get some message (c) from the Rebbe that (d) Tom Dick and Harry can rely on to make decisions?
Ouch.
Number one: Because Yoshia the great Tzadik, who Chazal say (Echah Rabbah 4) was to Hashem like an "article of gold jewelry" could interpret a sign from hashem that means every guy in the street can?
Two: Even Yoshia only took it as a sign because it was a miraculous occurrence, and
Three: Yoshia had a prophet confirm his initial understanding
Four: Nobody ever tried this in their own home. Nobody used a Sefer Torah in such a way to randomly open it and get "messages". it was only because of the unnatural finding and the weird way it was not rolled to the beginning that he took it as a sign, and even then, if it was not confirmed by a prophet we do not know if he would have accepted it as fact.
Six: None of this has anything to do with communicating with a dead Rebbe. Remember: These people never did this before, even though they had this "source" (sic) always, and they still do not do it with a Sefer torah but with the Rebbe's writings.
hello Posted - 11 April 2001 14:36
Hi, First of all Tess how can you compare us to Christians??? And if you're wondering why ppl say the Rebbe is moshiach, is because in the Gemora it discusses the name of moshiach: "the school of Rabbi Shila said his name is Shilo,... the school of Rabbi Yannai said the name is Yinnon... the school of Rabbi Chaninah said that his name is Chanina....
We know that in every generation there is one person worthy of being moshiach, and when the moment for redemption arrives, Hashem will reveal himself to him and send him to redeem us from Golus...
Therefore the disciples of these great Tzadikim each considered there master to be that person, so that is why lots of lubavitchers consider the rebbe to be moshiach.
MODERATOR Posted - 11 April 2001 14:53
hello,
Please refer to the above posts. Although they are teaching that Chazal in Lubavitch today as a source the source of their saying the Rebbe is Moshiach, the Gemora really says no such thing. The Gemora does NOT say that each student said their Rebbe was Moshiach, but rather that Moshiach's NAME is the same name as their Rebbe's.
If I say your name is the same as mine does that mean that you are me? A person's name is what they are known for. Their reputation, their fame. All the Gemora says is that Moshiach will be known for all the special things that every Rebbe was known for. The Maharal explains this, and he says that your explanation of the Gemora is impossible, and "should disturb" people ("yesh lecha l'tmuah meod). Note, please, that there is not one single commentary that explains the Gemora to mean that each student said his Rebbe is the Moshiach. Not one.
Furthermore, as explained above, the "Moshiach of the generation" is NOT the redeemer King Moshiach but rather a potential. Lubavitch has declared their Rebbe the King Moshiach, the Redeemer, the fulfillment of the potential, which nobody has done before, except in cases such as Bar Kochba and Shabse Tzvi r"l.
Third, the Lubavitcher Chasidim have declared their Rebbe to be Moshiach without the assistance of Ruach HaKodesh and the Madreogos of the ancient Tzadikim who have recognized specific individuals to be a potential Moshiach. Because holy Tzadikim such as Rav Pinchas Koritzer, for example, said recognized someone as a potential Moshiach does not mean that every Tom Dick and Harry in the street can do the same.
Nachalat Shimon Posted - 11 April 2001 14:55
Moderator
I always learned that what he found was just Sefer Devarim?
OK in any case can you please tell me where I can find all the sources about this being THE original sefer Torah and being turned to the unusual place? Thank you for your help.
MODERATOR Posted - 11 April 2001 15:07
The Radak and Abarbanel explain the Sefer being rolled to the special place.
Rashi explains that the Sefer Torah was found under a layer of stones where it was hidden when Achaz burned the Torah.
Malbim (quoting Abarbanel) explains that they found the Torah written by Moshe Rabbeinu, which was hidden from Menasheh, who cut the Shem Hashem out of the Torahs.
All these commentaries are found in the Perek itself.
jj Posted - 12 April 2001 15:01
Why isn’t this rebbe igros thing like the goyral hagr"a? I don’t know that much about it, but from what I've heard of it, it sounds very similar. does that also not have any mikor?
MODERATOR Posted - 17 April 2001 19:54
jj,
We discussed this above. The Goral HaGra only works if you do it a specific way with specific intent, all of which was derived Kabbalistically. It doesn’t mean just to open any book to anywhere by anyone.
And it does not allow you to communicate with the author of the book posthumously.
MODERATOR Posted - 18 April 2001 20:34
NOTE: We have received tons of messages from Lubavitchers disassociating themselves from the Meshichistin and the Yechi sayers.
They would like everyone to know that not all Lubavitchers believe the Rebbe is alive or even that the Rebbe is Moshiach.
Many of them say that the problem is, due to lack of leadership in Chabad, everyone is free to say they represent Lubavitch.
But these people want everyone to know that not all Lubavitchers approve of what the Meshichistin or the Yechi'ers are doing.
All those who have sent such posts, please accept this message as a communal post for all of you.
Thanks.
shirah Posted - 19 April 2001 15:59
How do you explain the fact that it works then, I don’t do it but I’ve SEEN it happen to people many times that the answer is exactly what they asked, these aren’t all made up stories
MODERATOR Posted - 19 April 2001 16:02
Doesn’t matter, Shirah. Please see my post, above, of 5 April 2001 21:15. This was discussed there.
girl on line Posted - 19 April 2001 16:36
Moderator - I read this topic a while ago, I don’t believe in it and I am a Lubavitcher, but I am extremely shocked, that you called it trash I mean, please, have a bit of sense will you?!
Otherwise I see you as a very knowledgeable man thank you for helping others but in future think about the people that believe in it and that they have feelings too just like everyone else and wouldn’t appreciate their beliefs spoken about in such a coarse way
- Thank you.
MODERATOR Posted - 19 April 2001 17:09
girl,
Just as the Lubavitcher teenager who were innocently fooled into believing this stuff are innocent since they don’t know better, and are hurt by hearing it is trash, so too the Conservative and Reform teenagers are hurt when we say their beliefs are trash.
But it's the truth. I used such a harsh word not just because it is the truth but because there are those who say "I don’t believe it but they have a right to believe it". That is also wrong. They have no more right to believe it than the Conservatives or Reforms or Christians or anyone has a right to believe their beliefs (And no, I did not just say they are like Christians. Read again.)
This "belief" of theirs is a distortion of Judaism. And all distorted Judaism is trash. People need to hear not only that this belief is wrong, but how wrong it really is. One of the reasons why people are willing to believe this stuff is because they look at it as just another legitimate Hashkafic disagreement that others don’t accept.
The reality is that is not so. This is not a Hashkafic disagreement. This is a simple matter of distorting the Torah which is a terrible sin. It needs to be portrayed like that, that there is no basis for such a belief, that it is merely the product of wishful thinking of some Lubavitchers combined with psychological denial, which, to add insult to injury, they then blame on the Torah by claiming the Torah says it.
This needs to be portrayed in the light of what it is - a neurosis, as opposed to a philosophical position. And when they distort the Torah and teach that their psychological denial is a Torah belief, that it is Chasidus, what they come out with is definitely trash. Sorry.
Please don’t shoot the messenger. I didn’t create this mess.
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