LUBAVITCH-----yechi? 4
starlight00 Posted - 22 January 2001 17:50
Well people do look in the torah for answers, I mean don’t we learn lessons from the torah about how to live our life?
And the reason we ask the Rebbe is because the Rebbe is our teacher and he is from our times so we can relate to him, and the book has letters to people about their problems.
And no, they are not farfetched. My cousin is on shlichus and once on purim there was this Israeli at his chabad house who said he didn’t believe in the igros.
So my cousin opened up a igros to test it out and there was a letter to that Israeli that was written ON PURIM and it was talking about ANOTHER ISREALI who used to religious and then went to a kibbutz when he was older and this whole thing exactly about that kids life and then it told him that he should go to this yeshiva somewhere and I was there when it happened and I saw the letter and it was so not farfetched.
And the reason why we don’t use fortune cookies and ice to communicate with the Rebbe is because the Rebbe wrote the igros which is the book that we use and he did not write the fortunes in cookies. what’s so hard to understand?
And yeah a lot of things everyone does doesn’t have a basis in the torah.
I mean why do we eat kugel on shabbos if there is no basis for it??? its called a minhag...
gurlzruleboyzdrool Posted - 22 January 2001 17:57
This conversation is really getting me pissed.
First of all mod what you said before about how you were mekarev all those people and why shouldn’t they think of you as their Rebbe.
HOW THE HELL CAN YOU COMPARE YOURSELF TO THE REBBE? Did you ever read wonders and miracles about all those miracles that the Rebbe did. did you ever do any miracles?
I don’t understand how you can say all these things against Lubavitch like what do you have against it?
I don’t think the Rebbe is alive physically but spiritually there’s no doubt about it.
ALSO about this whole igris thing I myself wrote into igris and got an answer that very much related to me, so how can you go around saying its trash when there are tons of stories about it.
Ok this whole conversations getting me really pissed gotta go cool down ~~whatever~~
MODERATOR Posted - 22 January 2001 21:02
Well, I'm not comparing myself to anyone, but they are saying that everyone should say their Rebbi is Moshiach.
So now you're adding that they also have to make miracles too?
So the Gemora that supposedly says that everyone should say his Rebbi is Moshiach is only talking if said Rebbi only makes miracles. Where'd you get that from?
Starlight,
The problem is not that you look in the Igros for answers, but rather HOW you do your looking.
If you were to tell me that you look in the index for a letter that the Rebbe wrote to someone with circumstances similar to yours, and then you apply the letter to your situation, that makes sense.
That's the way we look into the Torah for advice. If for instance, someone is going to meet with a powerful non-Jewish leader, he reviews the Parsha where Yaakov met Esav. And he takes the lessons in context, applying them as much as they are applicable to his situation.
We do not randomly open a Chumash somewhere and assume that whatever words appear on that page is the "message" that Hashem intended for us. That is nonsense. That is not how we are supposed to use Seforim. There is no reasoning behind it, it's baseless.
Therefore, in your example of the Israeli guy on Purim, the letter that he saw didn't prove anything, since who says that particular letter has anything to do with his issue? Only because you opened it up to there?
If you would find a letter somewhere from your Rebbe that says that dead people communicate with every Tom Dick and Harry in the street by random openings of their writings, that would mean something. But as it is, it shows zilch.
The difference between the way everyone in Klall Yisroel including Chabad always looked for answers in Seforim, versus the way these people do it today, is that everyone else always used the CONTENT of the Sefer, in the context that the message was written to decide if it applies to them or not.
These guys are, instead, using a random opening to decide if it applies to them, and there is no logic or religious source for such a concept.
The fact that you have some stories that seem to be indicative of connections between the person asking for advice and the advice itself - such as both were written on Purim and the like - means nothing.
First, out of so many tons of openings of the letters, you are bound to find some similarities simply at random, but even if not - even if you would find an impossibly large number of such connections, it would mean nothing positive about this practice. Since we know that
(a) there is no Torah source for it, and
(b) there is no logic behind it and
(c) Jews have never done it, ever, and
(d) it is only being used with the Lubavitcher Rebbe's Seforim, and, if this thing makes sense, it should apply to everyone's seforim, so obviously it is just one more method of singling out the Lubavitcher Rebbe as different than everyone from Moshe Rabbeinu down, it therefore cannot be real.
We do not base our beliefs on supernatural occurrences. The Yetzer Horah allows Yassir Arafat to survive plane crashes at impossible odds so that in Saudi Arabi they can "show" the school children that G-d approves of Arafat's actions. Every idol worshipper can have miracles done for him.
We derive our religious beliefs from the Torah, NOT from miracles. Since this has no basis in the Torah, and is clearly untrue otherwise Jews would have been doing this throughout history, we should not be impressed by "coincidences". Who knows? How do you know its not the Yetzer Horah, based on the principle of "he who wants to lower himself receives supernatural help to do so" (Yoma 39b), who is creating these "coincidences" in order for you to believe what's wrong?
It's happened in the past. Lubavitch, for instance, who are very anti-Zionist would have to answer the Zionist claims of miracles in a similar fashion. If you are not impressed with the Zionist stories of miraculous victories over all odds because "miracles" do not impress you - and you are of course correct in this attitude - why should anyone be impressed with your "miracles"?
But that's only l'shitashchem - according to your own understanding of what is happening.
I, too, was challenged by a friend of mine to "test" this Igros thing. My friend opened up the Sefer at random, and of course he "found" messages directed straight at him. Rather than argue with him about how interpretive he's being, I took a random volume of the World Book Encyclopedia and did the same thing. Lo and behold, I found an equal amount of messages to me.
But as I said, miracles or no miracles, if something does not come from a Torah source, we do not believe in it. Period. And this does not.
chochma Posted - 29 January 2001 23:23
Where does it say that moshiach has to be a living person?
Isn’t Tschias Hameisim going to happen and before that everyone will die anyway?
Esther Posted - 29 January 2001 23:44
I just learned about the topic of Yaakov Avinu Lo Meis in school and I am surprised at the ignorance displayed by everyone on this forum.
Rabbenu Bechaya, elaborating on the comments of the Rambam says clearly that the concept of Yaakov..lo mei applies to great tzadikim in every generation.
He proves this from the gemara at the end of Kesubos that Rabbeinu Hakodesh, after he was buried, used to return to his household and made kiddush for his family.
Rabbi Akiva Eiger in his notes, brings from the Sefer Chassidim that this proves that when he returned, he had the Halachic status of a regular person, or else, he would not be able to make Kiddush for his family.
We have no way of measuring the greatness of Tzadikim, however, followers of a certain Tzaddik are supposed to believe that their leader is as great as a Malach Hashem.
This is also a clear directive from the Gemora (I forgot where). Lubavitchers have all the right to believe this about their Rebbe. And it is well within the confines of Halachic Judaism. Stating otherwise, seems to me, sheer ignorance.
geulanow Posted - 29 January 2001 23:45
Emek Hamelech writes that Avrohom Avinu was able to be counted in a minyan .
It is written in Sefer Chasidim that Rabbeinu Hakadosh used to appear to his family in his Shabbos clothes (not funeral shrouds) to make Kiddush.
"For tzadikim are called `alive,' unlike other dead people who are free of the obligation to observe mitzvos...
Me Posted - 30 January 2001 0:25
Ok fine if lubav.'s want to say that his neshoma never died like most tzadikim it's one thing but SHLITA isn't really referring to that so what do you have on that one b/c they always say SHLITA after him and if you say z"l they have freak attacks!!!!
I've seen it quite a few times!
MODERATOR Posted - 30 January 2001 2:58
Geula and company:
We've discussed this above. Please be so kind as to scroll up. It gets difficult for the readers to go through the same material again. For the record, in a nutshell:
Rabeinu Bachya says no such thing. I'm sorry they taught you that but it is not so. You are referring to the Rabeinu Bachya in Bereishis 49:33, where he says just the opposite of what you were taught. Namely, that NOT every Tzadik is like Yaakov Avinu. he says there are certain individuals who merited that zechus, such as Rabeinu Hakodosh, but besides for such as them, the other Tzadikim are NOT in that category. He says that even Avrohom and Yitzchok Avinu were NOT in that category.
Furthermore, the Chasam Sofer and others state that the only Tzadikim who are considered in that category - that is, not dead and able to perform Mitzvos, are those who return to earth in their physical bodies. Those who do not appear on earth in physical bodies are considered 100% dead. So when the Lubavitcher Rebbe returns in his body like Rabeinu Hakodosh did, then we can put him in that category. Until then, he will have to remain in the same category as all others.
Furthermore, it does not say in the Gemora that you should look at your Rebbe like an angel. It says just the opposite: The if you find someone who is like an angel, you should make him your Rebbe.
As far as the "chezkas moshiach", if you are going to understand the Rambam to mean that the Chezkas-Moshiach person does not have to succeed in making all Jews follow the Torah but merely want them to do so, or to put an effort into them doing so, then almost everyone in the world who is a good Jew and tries his best to improve others and to fight Hashem's battles is Bechezkas Moshiach, if of course he is from Bais Dovid.
pritz Posted - 30 January 2001 15:29
me-"they ALWAYS say shlita after him...if you say z"l they have a freak attack!"
where are you getting your info. from? Did you have a personal experience where s/o had a freak attack when you said z"l?
I’m a lubav and all the seforim I own if they were printed after the rebbe's passing they all say in memory of the Rebbe ZI"A (zechuso yagen alainu)!!!
People write ZI"A after s/o dead! So what that SOME ppl. want to say shlita, that in no way includes the whole Lubavitch!
Most normal lubavs believe like what you said, although he died, he's still w/ us spiritually!
Sorry, if I got kinda heated up but these comments really irk me.
MODERATOR Posted - 06 February 2001 17:58
It's true, not all Lubavitchers believe the Rebbe is alive, boruch hashem. But some have really crossed all lines, even to say that it is prohibited to say "zechuso yagen alienu" on the Lubavitcher Rebbe, since he is still alive.
In the 16 Tamuz 5755 issue of Bais Moshiach, (p.37, 38) we find the following snippet regarding their practice of always referring to the Lubavitcher Rebbe as "shlita":
"If it is true about Rav Shimon bar Yochai (that we do not say "zechuso yagen aleinu"), and in regard to Yaakov Avinu (that they should not have embalmed him since he was alive)then ALL THE MORE SO and kal Vachomer regarding the Nasi Doreinu who is still our leader and has guaranteed many times that we will enter uninterrupted into eternal life with the Nasi Hador at our helm -- can someone even think to use phrases (such as zechuso yagen aleinu or Zatzal) that refer to people who have really died? Shouldn't we worry about being punished if we do so? And let us end [this article] on a positive note: That the Rebbe, the King Moshiach shlita should redeem us immediately and right away mamesh."
I promise I am not making this up. They said "if R. Shimon bar Yochai and Yaakov Avinu, then all the more so the Lubavitcher Rebbe."
Boruch Hashem NOT all Lubavitchers belief this insanity.
sarchie Posted - 06 February 2001 23:52
This whole conversation is upsetting me.
Moderator, with all due respect, what difference does it make??
Ok so if you don’t think that the Rebbe is "alive" with us today, why does it matter if anyone else does? You say that we were taught wrong and really it means the opposite of what we were told.
But even so, if that is true, we are not hurting anyone! like I feel like you are trying to prove all of us wrong, but where will that get us? Everyone has their own opinion.
I don’t think that it should cause such an argument and such aggressiveness and tension amongst yiddin. I’m sorry if I seem disrespectful...I really don’t mean to.
All I’m trying to say is that we really shouldn’t fight about this. I think that everyone should believe what they think right and trust and listen to their Rabbis and what their Rabbis are teaching them
MODERATOR Posted - 07 February 2001 16:17
Nobody is bothering you, either. The issue is whether when someone asks whether what is happening in your circles is against the Torah, should we not tell him Yes, it is against the Torah? or not?
There are numerous sins involved here, including distorting the Torah and, as we saw from the Yismach Moshe, trying to end the Geulah before the proper time. The punishment for which, the Gemora says, is that Jews are hunted down like animals and killed, not to mention the prevention of the coming of Moshiach.
But never mind all that. Nobody is marching into
But people do want to know if this Meshichist stuff is legitimate, just as they want to know about many other Hashkofos if they are legitimate, and there is no reason why they should not get a truthful answer. This is what studying Torah is all about.
Regarding the idea that everyone should listen to their rabbis, if you know your rabbi is making a mistake you may not listen to him. This is a clear Halachah found in many places. And if you see that your rabbi is distorting the Torah and teaching you the opposite of what it says, then maybe you should get a new rabbi.
If you are correct about this, then you have no reason to suggest this forum be stopped, since my rabbi taught me to always say the truth, especially when it comes to Torah.
I am really sorry that Chabad is having these problems, but please do not blame those who try to teach and clarify Torah for the infighting going on there.
starlight00 Posted - 07 February 2001 23:08
I posted something before and it didn’t get put on so here goes I’ll write it again. actually no, they aren’t farfetched answers.
And ok maybe you can get the answers from an encyclopedia then ok you can look in there but personally I would much rather get answers from the Rebbe then from an encyclopedia.
And anyway there is no such thing as accident. Obviously G-d wanted them to find an answer some how because EVERYTHING is divine providence. Are you disputing that? Am I wrong? please correct me if I am.
Even if you want to say that the Rebbe had nothing to do with it, god doesn’t do stuff by coincidence. In merit of the Rebbe he helps us find a page with an answer for us.
Punims Posted - 07 February 2001 23:16
I just read one reason why some Lubavitch ppl think that the Rebbe is moshiach.
People thought that the Lubavitch rebbes will be around forever.
When the 7th Lubavitcher Rebbe was alive and ppl saw that he didn’t have any sons or anyone to become the next Rebbe, they automatically assumed that he must be the moshiach. (which may be wrong but it's a logical explanation).
Then when he died they were a little shocked bec how could there be no rebbe at all if moshiach is not here?
The only solution would be that the rebbe never died, so they put it into their head that he's alive. And that’s where all this started. You cant blame them, there is nobody left of their beloved rabbaim, anyone who looked up to somebody and suddenly found them all dead would start thinking...
MODERATOR Posted - 07 February 2001 23:33
I agree, Punims, but that's the accusation, not the justification.
Lubavitch isn't the only ones to have a beloved Rebbe die without children (like Satmar), but whatever the case, it's no reason to forsake reality.
Some people have dysfunctional parent-child relationships, others have dysfunctional husband-wife relationships. These people have a dysfunctional Rebbe-chosid relationship. It's like, nebach a guy whose wife dies. He loves her so much he comes home every night, talks to her, cooks supper for her, and puts her to bed. It's sad, and understandable, but it's messed up.
starlight00 Posted - 08 February 2001 23:01
Actually punims, your so wrong its sad. And I'm lubav so I would know.
Believing the rebbe is moshiach is not a principle of lubav. Personally, I don’t know wither I do or not. However many lubavs believe that bc after getting close to the rebbe they saw how great he is and they decided he was moshiach.
Obviously I’m not really on the level to really recognize the extent of his greatness. but I wouldn’t condemn anyone who did.
MODERATOR Posted - 09 February 2001 3:21
starlight,
I know punims. She's Lubavitch too.
QueenMalka Posted - 09 February 2001 3:39
We believe the Rebbe is Moshiach, and alive, because he is no longer with us and if you are not Lubavitch you do not understand this, but the Rebbe was the spark of life for all of us.
Now that he is gone, we must have something to hold on to. Is that so wrong?
Of all the crazy things people want in the world, is it so wrong to want your Rebbe?
MODERATOR Posted - 09 February 2001 4:26
Queen,
It's not wrong to want a Rebbe, but that's like the guy who talks to his dead wife asking is it wrong for him to want his wife.
You guys gotta get a grip. The Rebbe is not alive. Not any more than the Bobover Rebbe or the Satmar Rebbe or the Bluzhever Rebbe or the Klausenberger Rebbe.
For a long time there were those in Chabad who "knew" (sic) that the Rebbe was Moshiach. Now they can't accept the fact that all these years they were wrong.
I remember when the Lubavitcher Rebbe was sick after his heart attack. These guys were saying to everyone don't worry, he will for sure recover. When asked what if he doesn't? The answer was that's unthinkable! Of course he will! He's Moshiach!
They were wrong then.
In the most recent issue of Bais Moshiach (9 Shvat 5761) there is an article called "The Seifer Torah of Moshiach". In short, the previous Lubavitcher Rebbe (Rayatz) began writing a Sefer Torah with which Moshiach is supposed to be greeted when he comes. The Torah was finished by last Rebbe (who they refer to as The Rebbe MHM, i.e. Melech Hamoshiach). On 10 Shevat 5730, the sefer torah was going to be completed in the Lubavitcher Bais Medrash in
The following are some quotes from those who were there:
"When the Rebbe opened the box and removed the crown, we were certain - I, as well as others who related this - that the Rebbe would place the crown on his head and be revealed as Moshiach . . . it wasn't a wish and it wasn't a feeling. It was absolute knowledge. We all knew this was the day Moshiach would be revealed" - Rabbi Yosef Berger
"It wasn't something that we debated. We were all 100% certain that after yud shevat would be the Geulah. No questions were asked and nobody tried to find allusions in the works of halachah chassidus or kabbalah" - Rabbi Chaim Meir Chazzan
They were wrong then, too.
When a belief yields so many wrong results, perhaps its time to rethink the belief.
I understand how people who believed something for so long can be in denial when they are faced with the reality that their belief was wrong, and I agree that nobody can judge them as people, because who knows if any of us would be able to accept the fact that a long established belief of ours was wrong? And we also all have to keep in mind the teaching of the Baal Shem Tov: Kol hanegoim ododm roeh, minigei atzmo - whenever someone sees others sinning, it is a sign that there is a sin in the one who sees it.
So when we see so many of our brothers fall so hard and so terribly we all have to do Teshuva. We should not judge them because how do we know how we would react if we were taught something all our lives, especially if we became frum through these teachers, and now we find out that it wasn't true?
Queen, the problem is that you have had an unhealthy relationship with your Rebbe that is not of the normal Rebbe-chosid nature. You need something to hold on to? The Torah is still here, Hashem is still here, and the world goes on. The Baal Shem Tov is gone, the Baal HaTanya is gone, my gosh - Dovid HaMelech is gone! And we have always had Hashem to "hold on to". If you feel you have NOTHING to hold on to in your religion unless you go into denial to believe the Rebbe is alive, then you have worshipped your Rebbe as a religion in himself rather than a teacher of it. Because Jews have always found something to sustain us, and that's Hashem and his Torah. If that role can't be filled the same way Jews - chasidim and non-chasidim - have filled it throughout history, with the fact that Hashem and the Torah are always here then that is a very big pity.
MODERATOR Posted - 12 February 2001 1:49
Star,
Of course there is Hashgocho here, but you have Hashgocho when you flip a coin too. Or when you throw the dice. Or when you open the World Book Encyclopedia to a random page.
You are adding the idea that a random opening of the Rebbe's letters has some extra Hashgocho that does not exist elsewhere. This is simply false. Hashem controls the dice as precisely as he controls your Rebbes letters. The idea that the Rebbe communicates through the random opening of the letters is not Hashgocho is a plain baseless fabrication.
Maidel123 Posted - 12 February 2001 19:26
I don't see what's so wrong with "holding onto" the Rebbe. The whole idea of a Rebbe-Chassid relationship is that a Rebbe's chassidim have a physical being through which they can access Hashem, since it is so difficult for most people on their own.
And anyone who says that they don't have that difficulty is fooling him or herself.
Especially in today's day and age, it is nearly impossible to have the close relationship with Hashem that we should.
Is it such a sin to look to the Rebbe to help us access that relationship to its highest potential?
And please, stop with this idea that Lubavitchers have held onto this idea for so long...not every Lubavitcher has. Many Lubavitchers who believe that the Rebbe may be/is Moshiach became involved in Lubavitch after Gimmel Tammuz.
MODERATOR Posted - 12 February 2001 23:01
Maidel,
It depends what you mean by "holding on". The Rebbe is not alive anymore. You can hold on to someone's teachings and his ways even when he is gone, but you do yourself no favor, and you do NOT connect yourself to Hashem any more, by denying reality and making believe he is alive. Remember -- you are not the first not the last Chasidim to lose a Rebbe. NOBODY ever has needed this fantasy to "hold on". Including in Lubavitch when previous Rebbes have passed away.
And your statement that "The whole idea of a Rebbe-Chassid relationship is that a Rebbe's chassidim have a physical being through which they can access Hashem, since it is so difficult for most people on their own" can mean many things - some very proper and some very idolatrous. But for sure, all of this only applies when it is based on a real Rebbe. Otherwise you're not using your Rebbe to access Hashem but rather a figment of your imagination who is NOT your Rebbe.
If you can't get another Rebbe for yourself like other Chasidim do, that's one thing. But to make believe that your Rebbe is still here is not going to bring him back.
PS - The Chasidim who joined the ranks of Chabad after the petirah of the Rebbe who believe this is simply because that's what they were taught by those who need to hang on.
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