LUBAVITCH-----anti lubav = anti chasid?
Jack Posted - 24 April 2001 21:00
I'm not here to settle this argument whether the Rebbe is Moshiach or not. I do feel though, that the moderator has a bias against Lubavitch.
I haven't read through the whole message boards, but in some of the reading I've done, I haven't seen a single quote from a sefer of chassidus.
The moderator has answered all these questions with letters, speeches and psak from different Gedolei Hador.
But where have you seen the author quote Tanya, or any other of the fundamental texts on Chabad Chassidus. I'm not accusing anyone of anything, I'm just asking the moderator to prove his points from the inside point of view
MODERATOR Posted - 24 April 2001 21:11
Yeesh. This is a very common problem inside Lubavitch. Whereas Chasidus is designed to supplement, or, better stated, work ion conjunction with Shas and Rishonim, with numerous people in Lubavitch it has become a religion of its own.
So if I quote Shas and Rishonim that’s insufficient because I didn’t quote any "Chasidishe" sources. (I did, but that’s not the point.) Shas and Rishonim should be enough for you, especially since there are zero chasidishe sources that say differently than I have cited.
The fact that CHazal and the Rambam don’t count for anything if the Tanya is not involved as well, is your problem, not mine.
And it happens to be one of the reasons that Chabad has attracted so much opposition from Torah leaders, both Chasidish and Litvish.
To say that proofs form the Gemora don’t matter because it’s not a "Chassidishe" sefer, is total Kefirah against Hashem and His Torah. And the Baal Shem Tov would be the first to agree. So would the Baal HaTanya.
Second, I am not the one who has to prove anything. I have merely shown that the Meshichistin have falsified their sources in their attempt to convince people that the Rebbe is Moshiach, or that the Rebbe is alive. It is they that need to cite proofs, and they have not done so. Not from Chassidishe Seforim, and not from any others. It is merely a fantasy they concocted out of thin air, and it is against the Torah, Chasidishe Seforim as well (please see the quote from the Yismach Moshe quoted above).
shirah Posted - 27 April 2001 14:02
Moderator, are you saying that the Lubavitcher Rebbe is wrong?
Is your point that all lubavitchers are crazy and misguided for following the rebbe, or are you saying that it’s just those who say he's alive? I'm just confused.
I mean how can you speak out so blatantly against a tzaddik?
I mean, you knock all the things I've been brought up with. it’s just making me very confused.
MODERATOR Posted - 27 April 2001 14:53
It is often difficult for those who have been brought up Lubavitch to understand the differences between the good and the bad in their community.
There are numerous defense mechanisms that they are taught to use, such as "you’re a Misnagid" or "you’re just anti- Lubavitch" or "how could you speak against a Tzadik", or "well, we are mekarev so many people, so nobody can say a word against us", instead of responding to the reasons for the opposition.
Also, you should not feel so bad that you are confused about this, because Lubavitch as a community is all confused.
Some will tell you that the Rebbe insisted that he was Moshiach, that he gave subtle but obvious "hints" such as "Moshiach is sitting at this table now", and things like that, that he encouraged the Chassidim to declare him Moshiach and he wanted to do it.
Others will tell you that the above is all baloney, that the Rebbe was totally against saying he was Moshiach, and was very upset when the Chassidim did it.
There are those who will say that the Rebbe is alive, and others who will tell you that those who say he is alive should be ostracized, and there are those that say they don’t care either way.
For a group who claimed to possess such strong leadership and tradition and clarity of purpose, something clearly is wrong with this picture.
You want to know if I am saying all Lubavitch is wrong or only the Chassidim or only those Chassidim who say the rebbe is alive or only those who say he is Moshiach.
Or are they wrong for following the Rebbe altogether?
Well, first you have to ask if the Chasidim are following the Rebbe at all, and if so, which ones? All of them? Or none?
The fact that in this forum, nothing was mentioned at all about the Rebbe himself - nothing at all - yet you want to know how I can "speak out so blatantly against a Tzadik?" shows one of the most common defense mechanisms in action.
Worse: At the beginning of this forum, in response to my saying that the Rebbe is not alive and it is crazy to say so, Maidel123 writes "What gives you the authority to bash chasidus?"
So whatever any Lubavitcher guy does in the street suddenly becomes Chassidus?
Here's where the problems begin: The inability to distinguish, within Lubavitch between:
(a) what components are generic Torah and Mitzvos shared by all frum Jews
(b) what components are general chassidus - meaning they come from the Baal Shem Tov and his Talmidim, but are not shared by non-Chasidim
(c) which components are specifically Chabad chassidus, meaning they come from the Baal HaTanya but are not shared by other Chasidim,
(d) which components come from the last Lubavitcher Rebbe but are not shared by classic Chabad Chassidus
(d) which components come from the Chassidim as interpretations of any or all of the above,
(e) which components come from the Chasidim as their own private "beliefs" or "feelings".
Unfortunately, there has been great confusion between all of the above categories, to the point where, in a Meshichist magazine, a Lubavitch Chosid explains why he thought, for sure and without a doubt, that when the Lubavitcher Rebbe took out of a box the crown to put on the Sefer Torah that was written to "greet Moshiach", that the Rebbe would surely crown himself Moshiach and the Geulah would come right then and there. It was, he said, the "natural feeling of a Chosid to his Rebbe."
No. Wrong. This is YOUR feeling to YOUR Rebbe. Nothing more, nothing less.
Yet by many in Lubavitch this is a hard pill to swallow.
Not everything you do becomes "Chasidus", or even "Chabad Chasidus".
The confusion between the above categories is what causes the confusion you feel now, Shirah.
Because you cannot differentiate between the categories above - and you were "brought up" with all of them - you automatically think that I am going "against all you have been brought up with".
Nope, not at all. Much of what you were brought up with - most, for sure - is not being discussed here. The issue is NOT Chasidim and Misnagdim, the issue is that you have been brought up thinking that the actions of your community are some kind of a gestalt (i.e. a whole that cannot be separated into the sum of its parts) such that whenever criticism is leveled against it, the response is "you’re anti-Lubavitch".
You also need to understand the relationship between the categories, the purpose of each of them, and why they exist.
In other words, the poster who said that he won’t accept any "proofs" from Shas and Poskim, but rather needs proofs from Chasidishe sources is very misguided regarding the hierarchy of authority of each of the categories. He does not understand how Chasidus relates to Shas and Poskim.
So far, in this forum, we have discussed the Rebbe being alive and the rebbe being Moshiach. That’s all. Please do not confuse that with "all you have been brought up with".
You need very much to know, about all you have been brought up with, which parts come from where. Then your confusion, about this and many other things that happen in your community, will end.
And you will understand that because someone says it is wrong to say the Rebbe is alive or that the Rebbe is Moshiach, does not make him a Misnagid, and it does not even make him against "Lubavitch".
Maidel123 Posted - 01 May 2001 2:01
At the beginning of this forum, in response to my saying that the Rebbe is not alive and it is crazy to say so, Maidel123 writes "What gives you the authority to bash chasidus?"
I see how careful one has to be with his words, and make sure that his intentions are understood. When I made the above statement, it was only because I sensed anti-Chassidish feelings from the Moderator, not necessarily a reference to the particular topic at hand as "chassidus."
Of course just because a self-proclaimed Chassid makes a statement doesn't make it Chassidus... unfortunately, we have far too many examples of individuals in Chassidic communities who make statements and call themselves Chassidim, thus causing non-Chassidim to think that these thoughts are Chassidus, chas v’sholom.
I apologize that I was not clear. I do not believe that the inyan of the Rebbe being Moshiach is necessarily Chassidic in nature, I was merely questioning the general anti-Chassidic feelings that I sensed.
Thank you for teaching me the important lesson of how careful I must be in making my intentions clear.
May we merit to greet Melech HaMoshiach soon.
MODERATOR Posted - 01 May 2001 13:17
OK Maidel, now you can see what I mean:
“When I made the above statement, it was only because I sensed anti-Chassidish feelings from the Moderator”
This "sense" of yours is way, way off. What I said was the Rebbe is not alive and it is crazy to say he is. And from that you "sensed anti-chasidish feelings"? To the point where you reply "who gives you a right to bash chasidism"?
That is exactly my point. The reality is there was nothing in what I said, nothing at all, to imply or hint at any anti-chassidsh tendencies. Yet that is automatically what you "sensed".
This is an example of the defense mechanism rampant in Lubavitch that when faced with a criticism of anything they do, they automatically "smell a misnagid", and of course, it’s only normal for a "misnagid" to not like Chasidim. This way, they can live in peace with what they do and dismiss all objections as coming from "misnagdim."
MODERATOR Posted - 02 May 2001 3:03
This came under separate cover, but when I tried to post it, it got corrupted:
"It's true Moderator what you're saying they always say "you’re a misnagid" and that way they don't have to bother answering the issue. Where I live, in
It's very derogatory and they're living in a dream world with the Moshiach stuff the Yarlmukas that say Yechi and the whole nine yards. It's very sad that they think everyone who says they're wrong is prejudiced.
The Mesilas Yeshorim says that someone who refuses to listen to Tochachah can never do Teshuva, that's exactly what these people are, it's the middah of Letzonus they have just to brush off everybody with a label without being accountable for their actions. They have been taught that everyone who is against them are Misnagdim it's part of the brainwashing that they have."
Maidel123 Posted - 02 May 2001 3:04
I still feel that there are a great deal of anti-Chassidish feelings (especially anti-Lubavitch) on this forum and in the world, and most of the time, people don't make a secret of it.
So it's not necessarily just a feeling that I have that is irrational and imagined. When my class went to visit different Jewish institutions around Brooklyn and
I hope we can erase these stupidities so we may be zoche to greet Mashiach soon.
MODERATOR Posted - 02 May 2001 3:38
Your "sensing" anti-chasidish feelings from my post was baseless, Maidel.
And the anti-Lubavitch sentiments that exist in the world are NOT anti-chasidus sentiments, which is something that is also mixed together in Lubavitch.
But the main point I would like you to think about is this: There is no question, that there is much anti-Lubavitch sentiment out there.
But you are assuming that the criticism of Lubavitch comes as a result of some baseless anti-Lubavitch sentiment. Perhaps it is the opposite: The anti-Lubavitch sentiment is the result of real and measurable claims that have been leveled against Lubavitch.
The anti-Lubavitch attitude is the result of the problems people see there - not that they see problems because they are anti-Lubavitch.
Really, why would anyone single out Lubavitch as the target of their sinas chinam more than any other group?
Why would great tzadikim and Gedolim, Chasidish and otherwise be so opposed to them?
Logically, Lubavitch should be loved by everyone - they aren't "anti" any Orthodox groups, and even when they are officially opposed to a philosophy, such as Zionism where Lubavitch is very anti, they do not throw it in anybody's face; they do so much for frumkeit, being Mekarev thousands of Jews around the world; they are maybe the most non-hostile group in all of Orthodoxy. They're so chilled, they should be natural friends of everyone, yet the greatest Torah scholars of the past few generations have vehemently opposed them on theological grounds, and it is the Talmidim of those great Gedolim who you prepared those questions when your class went around
It makes little sense to say that everyone just hates them for nothing.
That's why this "you're a misnagid" thing was developed - to explain away why so many people are against them.
I remember when they said Rav Shach is a Misnagid and that's why he is against Lubavitch. I also remember when a certain Jewish magazine in
But the fact is he's not. And neither are the others who oppose them.
QueenMalka Posted - 02 May 2001 12:45
Well, Moderator, are you a chosid or a misnagid?
MODERATOR Posted - 02 May 2001 14:31
I am a Jew. That's all.
But for the record, I happen to come directly from a long line of Rebbes - not just Chassidim but Rebbes - and among my "zaidehs" are the Yid Hakodosh of Prshyscha, the Chozeh of Lublin, the Rebbe Reb Meilech of Lizshensk, the Ma'or VaShemesh, Sanzer Rav (Divrei Chaim) the Saraf of Moglanitz, the Rebbes of Kirshanev, Blendev, and more. Nobody ever suspected me of being a misnagid.
Jack Posted - 02 May 2001 16:23
Is it not a halachah that if a large group of people come together and name Mashiach, he is Halachicly considered Mashiach?
Also, there is a prophecy that the one who is Mashiach will disappear for seven years and then will reveal himself. I'm not saying the Rebbe is Mashiach, but you have no halachic ability to falsify it!!
rattelsnake Posted - 02 May 2001 16:23
Your making as if lubavitchers know there's something wrong w/ their hanhaga & are prepared just in case they get criticism to lash back at ppl. & decide that they smell a misnagid.
I think it's only natural for Anyone to defend their views if they feel someone is offending them, don't make a general statement that all have this defense mechanism to jump against ppl. who disagree w/ things they're doing b/c they know it's wrong & are trying to justify it for themselves, b/c I don't see anything wrong w/ what lubavs are doing, so obviously there IS some kinda of negative feeling no matter how round about you try to make it come out.
MODERATOR Posted - 02 May 2001 17:53
Jack:
“Is it not a halachah that if a large group of people come together and name Mashiach, he is Halachicly considered Mashiach? “
No. Although I have heard this form of meshichistin, there is no such thing anywhere. Its just another forgery, out of thin air.
“Also, there is a prophecy that the one who is Mashiach will disappear for seven years and then will reveal himself.”
No, there is no such prophecy. You’re confusing this with a statement of R. Chaim Vital that Moshiach will be living, body and soul, in the lower Gan Eden before he reappears.
But what is the point anyway? Just because someone is dead does not make him Moshiach.
“ I'm not saying the Rebbe is Mashiach, but you have no halachic ability to falsify it!!”
Of course I do. Please see the above posts. The Rebbe did not meet the requirements for Moshiach.
But that’s not even the point. Its ridiculous to say "Well I say the Rebbe is Moshiach and you cant prove him not!" because by that logic, we can say I am Moshiach and you can prove me not! The psychoness here is that they invented out of thin air without any reason whatsoever that the Rebbe is moshiach. Now the fact is everyone is NOT Moshiach until you determine that he is. The onus is NOT on those who say anybody is NOT Moshiach but on those who say he IS Moshiach. This is not a scientific theory that works with theorizing and falsification. Even a theory has to have some backing. But these guys aren’t even theorizing, they declared their Rebbe to be the King Redeemer of all Jews.
To do so, before Moshiach is really known, is a terrible sin. As the Yismach Moshe said (quoted above), it is in violation of Hashem's demand that we not begin the end of the Golus until He says so. The punishment for declaring a specific person Moshiach before the real revelation, it says, is that Jews all over the world will be hunted down like animals (that’s a quote) and killed by the Goyim.
Also, it prevents Moshiach's arrival.
So if someone has a fantasy that he WANTS his Rebbe to be Moshiach, that’s his business. But to declare him to really be Moshiach, which what these people have done, is a terrible sin, not to mention foolishness.
MODERATOR Posted - 02 May 2001 18:01
rattlresnake,
No, they don’t realize there’s something wrong with their Hanhaga, and the reason they don’t realize it is because nobody can explain things to them because they were taught that anyone who says something against them must be a misnagid or plain sinas chinam.
That’s how defense mechanisms work. They prevent you from admitting the truth by hiding behind some false discrediting device of all those who say you’re wrong.
“I don't see anything wrong w/ what lubavs are doing, so obviously there IS some kinda of negative feeling no matter how round about u try 2 make it come out.”
Just because you do not see anything wrong with what they are doing, does not mean anyone who disagrees with you must have an agenda.
e Posted - 07 May 2001 15:17
I heard that if someone has the potential to become mashiach but people say that he is / will be mashiach he loses his opportunity. is this true?
MODERATOR Posted - 07 May 2001 15:19
I never heard that, but the Chassidic Sefer, "Tefilah LeMosheh" writes that as long as people point out any specific person as Moshiach, it is a terrible sin and prevents Moshiach from coming.
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