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ZIONISM-----and arab hatred


smile4me Posted - 03 May 2002 15:51

Moderator, the Arabs are brainwashed to hate us & want 2 kill us. right? so how do we know we aren’t being brainwashed into hating Arabs?

MODERATOR Posted - 03 May 2002 16:53

We are. At least, in many places. All countries, including the USA, teach in their schools their own subjective - sometimes false - version of history to justify their country's policies. The American revolution, for instance, takes on a totally different character when taught in the history classes in schools in the UK. The very facts, never mind the interpretation, is so different.

Israel is not different. The are a secular country, and they teach what suits their country's nationalistic position. And the Zionist movement needs to justify its philosophical positions too, even from a secular viewpoint, since it is a secular movement, so it, too, teaches things the way it wants.

The Arabs didn’t always hate Jews. At least, not more - and usually a lot less - than the Christians. If you check out the prior discussion in this forum, you’ll see that the Jews enjoyed a relatively (relatively) peaceful and friendly relationship with the Arabs for two thousand years. Of course, there were always evil or insane Arab warlords or leaders who persecuted Jews, but they persecuted others as well, and the Arab governments as a whole were not at all interested in harming the Jewish population within their own borders, or elsewhere.

Jews fought side by side with the Arabs against the Crusaders, and, all the way up till the Old Yishuv, had a cordial relationship with their Arab neighbors (for a description of the Arab-Jewish relationship in Eretz Yisroel in those days, check out the ArtScroll book on Rav Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld, where it is described vividly).

All that ended when the Zionists decided to take Eretz Yisroel to be a Jewish State. The Arabs living there didn’t like that at all. And the threats and intimidation and force that the Zionists used against the Arabs certainly does not justify - but caused - Arabs infuriation against Jews.

Even the Chevron massacre, which the Zionists use as "proof" that the Arabs hate Jews even without any Zionism (since it took place before '48), was due solely to the Zionist intimidation and threats and demands to use the territory around the Kosel - it was that particular confrontation that sparked the massacre. Rav Boruch Kaplan ZTL, husband of Rebitzen Vichna Kaplan of the BY, was a survivor of the massacre. He made a tape which is available commercially, telling his children what happened in Chevron. He said the Rabbonim begged the Zionists to stop their intimidation and confrontation over the Kosel, but the Zionists would not listen. "Shema Yisroel," one of them announced at an assembly of thousands, "HaKosel Kosleinu, HaKosel Echad!" The Rabbonim warned them that the Arabs are wild and if they continue this, there will be a massacre. but they didn’t listen.

The Arabs in Chevron got along very well with the Jews before that, he says. But when the Arabs saw that their neighbors really want to take their land, they went nuts. And the rest we all know...

Meir Kahane used the Chevron massacre as a "proof" that the Arabs are just anti-Semites and their hatred toward Jews has nothing to do with Israel, since there was no Israel then.

He is lying. There was no Israel, but there were Zionists. There was the Haganah and the Irgun, the Balfour declaration, there was terrible fighting and terrorism - both by Zionists and Arabs - in the fight over the land. Kahane surely knew this. But he wanted people to hate the Arabs and so he made up things about them.

Here in New York there is a large community of Syrian Jews. They will tell you that, up until 1948, and very often even after 1948, their grandparents (or even parents) lived fine in Syria. it was not easy to get out of the country, but they were not persecuted inside of it. They were happy there. Until they were forced to leave, because of the hatred that was ignited due to the middle east conflict.

The Zionists of course are not so comfortable teach their kids that their actions is what caused the Arabs to hat us, because then a kid will raise his hand and ask "So why was it worth it?" So they say, instead, that Arabs hated Jews forever, that their hatred is due to Anti-Semitism, and that they always tried to kill Jews all over and that they always will.

The history books written by more objective (less nationalistic) authors does in fact reflect this (please see quoted above), and even the nationalist history cannot avoid it, though they try to play it down as much as they can. In fact, the "History of Middle East Conflict" on CNN's website does indeed mention that the Chevron massacre was due to some "conflict" over the Western Wall. They didn’t go into details. Rabbi Kaplan did. You should listen to his tape (though its in Yiddish).

The Zionists (and Martin Luther King) went around telling people that they represent Jews and Judaism, which told the Arabs that Jews and Judaism wants to go to war with them for the land.

The Arabs are being taught that all Jews are cruel tyrants who want to kill Arabs and take their land.

And Jews are being taught that all Arabs are terrorists that want to kill all the Jews.

They are both evil lies, but unfortunately, they are self-fulfilling prophecies. The more the Arabs hear the lies about Jews the more they hate them, since they believe that they have a legitimate reason to. And the more the Jews hear the lies about the Arabs, the more they hate them, for the same reasons.

To the point where, today, the hate on both sides is so deeply entrenched, I don’t know how it can be eradicated. Good Jews I know tell me, when I tell them that it was wrong to Boo Wolfowitz off the stage when all he said was that innocent Palestinians are also being hurt - which is true - and even if you don’t want to hear it, why denigrate your best friend in the government (Wolfowitz is exceptionally pro-Israel). The answer I hear from many is "There are no such thing as innocent Palestinians!". Wow.

But if we keep on talking like this, eventually it will be true.

There is no question that the Arabs now want to kill Jews - but that is because they were told - by Zionists and Arabs both - that the "Jews" hold they are entitled to the land and Arabs gotta go - plus every action of the Israeli government and military - and with that assumption, hatred grows.

None of this of course justifies the killing of Jews - even if you hate someone, you cant murder them! But as the cycle of mistrust and hatred grows on both sides, it becomes more and more impossible to even have peace.

And without peace, more and more Jews are going to die, c"v.

The Arabs are fully aware of the following quotes - which are published in both Arab and Israeli sources ! Arab - to prove that the Jews are vicious enemies who want to throw them out of their land. And Israelis - to show how they are not intimidated by Arabs threats and how they will defend themselves against terrorism and attacks from the Arabs.

Read the next post and imagine what effect it has on Arab children:

Aretz Posted - 03 May 2002 17:50

There’s 2 sides to this story. Israel, we should not forget, is a political entity, not a Judaic entity, and so their stances are political in nature, and in politics there are usually 2 sides to the story. And the moderator is right, if we are going to have peace we have to know why the other side is fighting. I hope the mod will let me post this article.

Palestinian offers perspective of struggle
New Haven Register May 2, 2002

HAMDEN - Mazin Qumsiyeh has two vivid memories: Israeli tanks and soldiers
taking over his Palestinian village in 1967, and his grandfather tearfully
hugging an old Jewish friend of his two weeks later.

Qumsiyeh, who recalled these events Wednesday night during a forum at Quinnipiac
University, said he was profoundly moved by both events.

The session, titled "War or Peace in the Holy Land," illustrated the divisions
separating the perspectives of Israelis and Palestinians as violence continues there.

Qumsiyeh, an associate professor of genetics at the Yale School of Medicine,
debated history and human rights with Charles Small, director of the Urban
Studies Program at Southern Connecticut State University.

Qumsiyeh is an American citizen of Palestinian ancestry. Small came to America
after living in Jerusalem and working for the Israeli Ministry of Higher Education.

Toward the end of the discussion, which attracted about 50 people, Small said,
"I find it sad that it's 2002 and we have to sit here and (struggle to)
legitimize Jewish self-determination."

But Qumsiyeh recalled how his family's village was occupied by the Israeli
forces, which confiscated the Palestinians' farms, using the land for Israeli settlements.

"When you take people's land, the natives are going to resist," he said. "It's
like the Africans in South Africa resisted apartheid."

Small replied, "To single out the Jewish identity as Nazi-like and
apartheid-like, I find this pernicious."

Small added, "I know of no political or moral or religious framework that
legitimizes suicide bombs and massacring civilians. It is immoral and unethical."

But Mahmood Monshipouri, who chairs Quinnipiac's Political Science Department,
told Small everybody in the auditorium condemns suicide bombings.

I'm not aware of any moral framework that legitimizes 35 years of occupation,"
Monshipouri said.

Randall Beach can be reached at or 789-5766.

MODERATOR Posted - 03 May 2002 19:38

“The Palestinians are like crocodiles, the more you give them meat, they want more.” (Ehud Barak, Aug. 28, 2000 — when he was prime minister — reported in the Jerusalem Post August 30, 2000.)

“The Palestinians are beasts walking on two legs.” (Menahim Begin, in a speech to the Knesset, quoted by Amnon Kapeliouk, in “Begin and the Beasts” (New Statesman, June 25 1982.)

“When we have settled the land, all the Arabs will be able to do about it will be to scurry around like drugged cockroaches in a bottle.” (Raphael Eitan, chief of staff of the Israeli Defense Forces (New York Times, April 14, 1983))

“How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to.” (Prime Minister Golda Meir, March 8, 1969.)

“There was no such thing as Palestinians, they never existed.” (Golda Maier, June 15, 1969)

“The thesis that the danger of genocide was hanging over us in June 1967 and that Israel was fighting for its physical existence is only bluff, which was born and developed after the war.” (Israeli Gen. Matityahu Peled, Ha’aretz, March 19, 1972.)

“If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been anti — Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: We have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?” (David Ben Gurion — the first Israeli prime minister — quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp121.)

Ben Gurion also warned in 1948: “We must do everything to insure they (the Palestinians) never do return.”

Also from Ben Gurion, in response to the question about what they will do with the Palestinian refugees: “The old will die and the young will forget.”

“Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that. I want to tell you something very clear: Don’t worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it.” (Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, Oct. 3, 2001, to Shimon Peres, as reported on Kol Yisrael radio.)

“We declare openly that the Arabs have no right to settle on even one centimeter of Eretz Israel... Force is all they do or ever will understand. We shall use the ultimate force until the Palestinians come crawling to us on all fours.” (Rafael Eitan, chief of staff of the Israeli Defense Forces — Gad Becker, Yediot Ahronot, April 13,1983, New York Times, April 14, 1983.)

“We must do everything to ensure they (the Palestinian refugees) never do return” (David Ben-Gurion, in his diary, July18, 1948, quoted in Michael Bar Zohar’s Ben-Gurion: the Armed Prophet, Prentice-Hall, 1967, p. 157.)

“We should prepare to go over to the offensive. Our aim is to smash Lebanon, Trans-Jordan, and Syria. The weak point is Lebanon, for the Muslim regime is artificial and easy for us to undermine. We shall establish a Christian state there, and then we will smash the Arab Legion, eliminate Trans-Jordan; Syria will fall to us. We then bomb and move on and take Port Said, Alexandria and Sinai.” (David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff (From Ben-Gurion, A Biography by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978))

“We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.” (Israel Koenig, “The Koenig Memorandum”)

“Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal Al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population.” (Moshe Dayan, address to the Technion, Haifa, reported in Haaretz, April 4, 1969.)

“We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, ‘What is to be done with the Palestinian population?’ Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said ‘Drive them out!’” (Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, Oct. 23, 1979. 18.)

“There are some who believe that the non-Jewish population, even in a high percentage, within our borders will be more effectively under our surveillance; and there are some who believe the contrary, i.e., that it is easier to carry out surveillance over the activities of a neighbor than over those of a tenant. (I) tend to support the latter view and have an additional argument:...the need to sustain the character of the state which will henceforth be Jewish...with a non-Jewish minority limited to 15 percent. I had already reached this fundamental position as early as 1940 (and) it is entered in my diary.” (Joseph Weitz, head of the Jewish Agency’s Colonization Department. (From Israel: an Apartheid State by Uri Davis, p.5.))

“Everybody has to move, run and grab as many hilltops as they can to enlarge the settlements because everything we take now will stay ours... Everything we don’t grab will go to them.” (Ariel Sharon, addressing, as foreign minister, a meeting of the Tzomet Party (Agence France Presse, Nov. 15, 1998))

“It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands.” (Yoram Bar Porath, Yediot Aahronot of July 14, 1972.)

“Spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly.” (Theodore Herzl, founder of the World Zionist Organization, speaking of the Arabs of Palestine, Complete Diaries, June 12, 1895 entry.)

Please note that the above quotes are widely known both among Israelis and Palestinians.

And they stir up nationalistic pride in both Israelis and Palestinians.

And they make both Israelis and Palestinians hate each ever more.

And I didn’t even start with quotes from Kahane. (The difference is, though, Kahane was illegalized by Israel. The above rhetoric was not.)

Our Gedolim warned them about saying things like this. The Torah holds that such statements cause Jews to be killed, and generates anti-Semitism around the world.

No, not all Palestinians are terrorists. Many just want to live a normal life in peace. And you will find statements like that among many Israelis, including in the government. But there are enough of those who say all Arabs want to kill all Jews because it is their nature, that the more rational voices are drowned out.

And not all Jews are tyrants. But there are so many Palestinians saying that we are all evil, that any semblance of reason that could have hopefully reared its head is shot down immediately. Especially since the only "government" there is Arafat, who is a terrorist, how in the world are the rational voices going to be heard? And how long will they be able to survive?

(A few weeks ago, Arafat actually wrote a letter saying that he is aware of the difference between the "beautiful values of Judaism and the peaceful relationship between Jews and Arabs throughout history" versus aggressive Zionism. But nobody there, including the coward Arafat himself, will publicize it.)

The whole thing is a big mess. The Arabs want to kill or drive out Jews and the Jews want to kill or drive out Arabs. None of this would have happened if we would have listened to the Gedolim.

The only question is, now what do we do?

trawmatized Posted - 24 June 2002 2:04

Moderator, I read the AOL welcome screen today that says Bin Laden is alive and well and plotting more terror against Jews and America. His reason? Because of Israel.

The terrorists yemach shemom blew up a shul in Tunisia, and what did they say was Cuz of what Israel did to the Palestinians. Why couldn’t the Zionists just leave well enough alone. They've brought the whole world down on our heads and world war 3 is problem going to come because of them.

Why cant we do something about these Jewish rodfim who are putting all of world Jewry in danger because they want their stupid state. How can we tell the world that these people are not representing us? Why are they killing us? Who gave the Zionists the right to represent Jews? Why should we be put in danger because of them????? What can we do about these people??? Can we shut them up somehow?

smile4me Posted - 24 June 2002 17:56

Moderator, so when you said that when ppl say -there's no such thing as an innocent palistinian,wow-you mean that some Arabs are good? Not all of them are bad?

& what DO we do?

MODERATOR Posted - 10 July 2002 21:26

No, not all Arabs hate Jews. So many do, and it is not because of their religion. If it were, the religious ones (Muslims) would hate Jews more than the non-religious Arabs, but its not so. Arafat isn’t even religious! That’s right, he is not a practicing Muslim. Not in the slightest. He is even married to a Christian! The whole thing is political.

The Arabs are hateful because their land was taken from them, the way the Indians were hateful to white people. The only problem is, those who are responsible for taking the land and making a State falsely told the world - and the Arabs - that they represent Jews and Judaism.

Even though Judaism is a religion, not a political party, and the religious Jews did NOT want to take the land and make a Jewish State (except for the Mizrachi) and those that did want the State were not practicing Jews at all, and even anti-Judaism, for political and financial reasons, they went around presenting themselves as the representatives of Jewry.

They still do this. When Sharon gets indicted for war crimes in Lebanon, he says "This is an attack on all Jews!". Ah, no, Ariel, it's not. It's an attack on YOU. I have nothing to do with what you did in Lebanon, and neither does anyone else.

It's a Zionist trick to say all attacks on their policies and actions constitute anti-Semitism.

The world gets sick of this, and hates Jews more when this happens. Nobody can say boo about Israel doing something wrong because then you’re an anti-Semite. The world hates this, and hates Jews more because of it.

So the Arabs - like many nations in the world - falsely believe that all Jews, and Judaism are responsible for the fact that their land was taken. So they hate Jews.

Of course, this does not justify terrorism and killing innocent people. But this is the reason behind the hate.

Before the Zionists came to Israel, the Arabs and Jews got along together relatively well. In fact, we were better off living with the Arabs than we were living in Europe. The Arabs treated us much better than the Christians, until the Zionists came along.

What we can do is two things: One practical, and one spiritual. The practical advice comes form the Satmar Rav ZTL (Divrei Yoel, Naso) and the spiritual from Rav Shach ZTL (Michtavim Umaamarim, vol. I sec. 1).

Practical: We should let the world know that we do not support any actions that are against the Torah, including the actions of the Zionists. We should try as hard as we can to dismantle the propaganda that Jews are responsible for what happened in the middle east. World Jewry and Judaism are not responsible for what the Zionists do and have done, they are not responsible for the acts behaviors and polices of the State of Israel, and the State of Israel does NOT represent Jewry or Judaism.

It's like when a Jew is lets say convicted of embezzling millions of dollars. And he says "I represent all Jews in the world. An attack on me is an attack on Jewry and Judaism. Never again!" And as a result, the world hates Jews.

What would we do? We would say Hello, we have nothing to do with this guy. Judaism does NOT condone stealing and we are not responsible for what this guy did, we preach not to steal and we cant help it if we have people who disobey the Torah.

And if a murderer would say he represents Judaism, we would say hello, we have nothing to do with this.

And so since the taking of the land and creating a Jewish State was, too, against the Torah, and it is that which caused all this danger for Jews (Even the Zionists admit that it was the creation of Israel that made the Arabs into enemies - see Five Addresses, Rav Soloveichik, p.79), therefore we should say that Jews are not responsible for the Arab problems, and we are not responsible for the occupation of the territories, we are not responsible for anything but our own actions, leave us alone, we didn’t start this fire. Your fight is political - Zionist Nationalists vs. Arab Nationalists, not religious.

Jews are not part of this. We are concerned about the lives of our brethren, the Jews, NOT the political or nationalistic success or failure of any State or government that we were against to begin with.

There are Arabs, even, who know this. Many of them have been preaching lately that their fight is not with Jews or Judaism, it is a political/nationalistic fight with Zionist aspirations, not Jewish ones. And that Jews are not the enemy.

We would think that when Arabs talk like this we would be happy - there were Germans that spoke like this and saved Jews - we all know of some family or another who was hidden in the attic of some German who believed that Jews aren’t evil - but the Zionists wont let the Arabs let Jews off the hook.

In the Jewish Press 2 weeks ago, a professor Howard Edelson wrote about some Palestinian woman who wrote an article in a college magazine saying that Judaism is not Zionism, that Zionism is the enemy not Judaism, etc.

Well Professor Edelson wouldn’t have a Palestinian saying that Jews are not the enemy, so he made sure to explain (to who? the Palestinian readers of the JP?) that Judaism indeed is the culprit here and that Jews have a G-d-given "right" to Eretz Yisroel (even in Golus), and that they have a moral and legal right to determine everything pertaining to Eretz Yisroel, and that, basically, Jews are the bosses, and nobody else has a say in the matter.

This kind of Hisgarus B'Umos, and flaming the fires of anti-Semitism puts Jews all over in danger. We need to counter this. We don’t have to take responsibility for a war that we didn’t start, and policies that we don’t have, and people who do not follow our behaviors.

And any Arabs that say Jews are not bad should not be discouraged. Every German family that saved a Jew in the holocaust allowed a whole new generation to survive. Whoever saves even one Jew is as if he saved an entire world. Pushing Jews into the line of fire like that professor did is something that we cannot tolerate. The lives of our brothers is our most important concern.

The spiritual advice:

We must eradicate from ourselves many idolatrous attitudes. The main one is Kochi V'Otzem Yadi - the idea that we are physically strong. the truth is, Jews in Golus are weak. Hashem caused the Yom Kippur War "without a doubt" in order to rid us of the idea that Israel is strong. The Arabs did stupid things and lost the war, but Israel was on the verge of being defeated, Israel was weaker than the Arabs - but Hashem made the Arabs slip up, due to no credit on Israel's part. Israel just got lucky. Hashem did this to show that Israel isn’t strong - the "idea that Tzahal is an undefeated army has been shattered to bits".

We need to disabuse ourselves of the idea that Israel can defend itself. Only Hashem protects us - not soldiers, not anyone. And to "flex our muscles" at the nations just creates anti-Semitism and endangers Jews. We must be subservient to the nations in Golus, not annoy them, and accept whatever troubles the Golus and the nations unfortunately meet upon us; physical resistance only backfires. We must oppose any idea that defies the Nations of the world, even if we Jews are right. We must not do anything to cause anti-Semitism in the world, even in the form of raised oil prices because of the Jews, for such things fan the flames of hate. "The State of Israel is not the people of Yisroel - and even if something may be in the best interests of the State of Israel, it may not be in the best interests of the people of Yisroel." For instance, if Israel defies America’s commands, they are putting the Jews of America in danger. We are not a self-ruling nation in Golus that we can say "America says this, we will say differently". We are in Golus, America is not. We must not defy or fight the nations of the world, for that creates anti-Semitism and puts all of Klall yisroel in danger.

There is much more from Rav Shach ZTL on this topic, in the first section ("Eretz Yisroel") of the first volume of Michtavim Umaamarim. It is definitely a must-read for all Jews who want to know how to respond to the middle east crisis according to the Torah. I have begun excerpting some of the material and posting it in its own topic elsewhere in this forum.

Also infinitely valuable on this topic is Rav Elchonon Wasserman's Ikvesa D'Meshichah, included in Kovetz Maamarim, and available in English (though I haven’t seen it around in years), called "Epoch of the Messiah." it tells us how we Jews must respond and react to problems while we are in Golus, in order to save lives.

Punims Posted - 16 July 2002 16:07

But if all the world has to be against the Jews for Moshiach to come, then shouldn't we be happy when the world starts to just be against us?

I read that Rabbi Moshe Cardovero said:

"All the nations are one day going to come together and start talking peace amongst themselves. This talk of peace will have one underlying goal, though: to destroy Israel. And their rationale shall be: because they (the Jews) established for themselves their own government. And though the Jews will be in tremendous danger at that time, nevertheless they will not be destroyed. In fact, from that very situation they will be saved."

MODERATOR Posted - 16 July 2002 16:58

The world does not have to be against Jews for Moshiach to come. The only thing that has to happen is that Klall Yisroel will do Teshuva.

And even if it were so, Jewish people getting killed is not something we should be happy about even if it causes Moshiach to come. Moshiach's coming is G-d's job.

Ours is to fulfill the Torah, and the Torah wants us to make sure Jews live, and not to be so cruel as to be happy when one dies - even if that happiness is because it is a "sign" that Moshiach is coming. And that is true even if Jews are in danger of being killed.

The Brisker Rav ZTL pointed this out by the Halachah that Moshiach cannot come on Shabbos, due to the Techum. This shows, he said, that even if the Geulah could be brought, and all the problems of Klall Yisroel would end, fulfilling the Torah - even one Halachah - is much more important.

The Rebbe Reb Bunim of Prshyscha ZTL once said, similarly, that he could bring Moshiach, but he will not. The reason is, because when Moshiach will come, there will be a welcoming celebration, and all the Tzadikim will be sitting on the dais, and right next to Moshiach will be the Godol Hador, the Yid Hakodosh of Prshyscha.

Moshiach will ask the Yid, "How did you finally do it? How did you bring me?"

"And the Yid will have to point all the way in the back of the room, where I will be standing," the Rebbe Reb Bunim said, and he will have to say 'See that man Bunim? he brought you'. "

And In that moment, the Yid Hakodosh will be embarrassed that he's such a big Tzadik, and it took me, a simple Jew, to bring Moshiach.

To save the Yid Hakodosh that embarrassment, it is worth not to bring Moshiach.

Rav Schneur Kotler ZTL used to say over that story, and ad that it has a source in Chumash. When Hashem told Moshe to bring the Jews out of Egypt, he said he doesn’t want to do it because Aharon will feel bad that he wasn’t the Go'el.

Moshiach is a great thing, but not allowing pain to another Jew is even greater.

Nothing is greater than Torah.

zo artzeinu Posted - 30 July 2002 22:11

Not bad moderator but not good enough. We should admit it straight out, if we're ever going to find a solution to this bloodbath that’s taking place in Eretz Yisroel. THIS is why the Arabs hate us. It’s because we took their land:

Moshe Sharett, the first Israeli foreign minister, wrote in 1914:

We have forgotten that we have not come to an empty land to inherit it, but we have come to conquer a country from people inhabiting it, that governs it by the virtue of its language and savage culture ..... Recently there has been appearing in our newspapers the clarification about "the mutual misunderstanding" between us and the Arabs, about "common interests" [and] about "the possibility of unity and peace between two fraternal peoples." ..... [But] we must not allow ourselves to be deluded by such illusive hopes ..... for if we ceases to look upon our land, the Land of Israel, as ours alone and we allow a partner into our estate- all content and meaning will be lost to our enterprise. (Righteous Victims, p. 91)

In August 18 1948, Moshe Sharett wrote to Chaim Weizmann, explaining the Israeli government's determination to block the Palestinian Arab refugees' return:

"With regard to the refugees, we are determined to be adamant while the war lasts. Once the return tide starts, it will be impossible to stem it, and it will prove our undoing. As for the future, we are equally determined to explore all possibilities of getting rid, once and for all, of the huge [Palestinian] Arab minority [referring to the Palestinian Israeli citizens of Israel] which originally threatened us. What can be achieved in this period of storm and stress [referring to the 1948 war] will be quite unattainable once conditions get stabilized. A group of people [headed by Yosef Weitz] has already started working on the study of resettlement possibilities [for the Palestinian refugees] in other lands . . . What such permanent resettlement of 'Israeli' Arabs in the neighboring territories will mean in terms of making land available in Israel for settlement of our own people requires no emphasis." (Benny Morris, p. 149-150)

In 1904, before Zionism matured into a powerful political force, Menachem Ussishkin stated that:

"[Land is acquired] by force --- that is, by conquest in war, or in other words, by ROBBING land form its owner; . . . by expropriation via government authority; or by purchase. . . [The Zionist movement was limited to the third choice] until at some point we become rulers." (Righteous Victims, p. 38)

In April 28, 1930 Menachem Ussishkin stated in an address to journalists in Jerusalem:

"We must continually raise the demand that our land be returned to our possession .... If there are other inhabitants there, they must be transferred to some other place. We must take over the land. We have a great and NOBLER ideal than preserving several hundred thousands of [Palestinian] Arabs fellahin [peasants]." (Righteous Victims, p. 141)

Soon after the 1967 war, Moshe Dayan wrote in his memories regarding the ethnic cleansing and destruction of the 'Imwas, Bayt Nuba, Yalu, and big portion of the West Bank city of Qalqilya:

"[houses were destroyed] not in battle, but as punishment . . . and in order to CHASE AWAY the inhabitants . . . contrary to government policy." (Righteous Victims, p. 328)

In September 1967 Moshe Dayan told senior staff in the Israeli Occupation Army in the West Bank that some 200,000 Palestinian Arabs had left the West Bank and Gaza Strip:

"we must understand the motives and causes of the continued emigration of the [Palestinian] Arabs, from both the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, and not to undermine these cause after all, we want to create a new map." (Righteous Victims, p. 338)

In 1895, Theodore Herzl, the founder of Zionism, wrote in his diary:

"We must expropriate gently the private property on the state assigned to us. We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it employment in our country. The property owners will come over to our side. Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discretely and circumspectly. Let the owners of the immoveable property believe that they are cheating us, selling us things for more than they are worth. But we are not going to sell them anything back." (America And The Founding Of Israel, p. 49 & Righteous Victims, p. 21-22)

In October 1882 Ben-Yehuda and Yehiel Michal Pines, few of the earliest Zionist pioneers in Palestine, wrote describing the indigenous Palestinians:

". . . There are now only five hundred [thousand] Arabs, who are not very strong, and from whom we shall easily take away the country if only we do it through stratagems [and] without drawing upon us their hostility before we become a the strong and papules ones." (Righteous Victims, p. 49)

While the Zionist leadership was discussing the morality of "transferring" the Palestinian people in December 1918, Yitzhak Avigdor Wilkansky, an agronomist and advisor at the Palestine Office in JAFFA, felt that, for practical reasons, it was:

"impossible to evict the fellahin [Palestinian Arab peasants], even if we wanted to. Nevertheless, if it were possible, I would commit an injustice towards the [Palestinian] Arabs. There are those among us who are opposed to this form the point of view of supreme righteousness and morality. . . .[But] when you enter into the midst of the Arab nation and do not allow it to unit, here too you are taking its life. . . . Why don't our moralists dwell on this point? We must be either complete vegetarians or meat eaters: not one-half, one-third, or one-quarter vegetarian." (Righteous Victims, p. 140-141 & America And The Founding Of Israel, p. 71)

Chaim Weizmann wrote in a letter dated April 28, 1939 to the American Zionist leader Solomon Goldman about the possibility of acquisition of a large tract of land belonging to the Palestinian Arab Druze in the Galilee and eastern Carmel:
"The realization of this project would mean the emigration of 10,000 [Palestinian] Arabs [to Jabal al-Druze in Syria], the acquisition of 300,000 dunums. . . . It would also create a significant precedent if 10,000 [Palestinian] Arabs were to emigrate peacefully of their own volition, which no doubt would be followed by others." (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 167) Ironically, what actually happened during the 1948 war was almost the complete opposite. The Palestinian Druze Arabs were the ones who were permitted to stay (among other minorities too like Shi'ites and Maronite Christians), especially in and around the Haifa and al-Carmel area.

This was seconded by Avraham Katznelson, another influential Mapai leader, who also said:

"more moral, from the viewpoint of universal human ethics, than the emptying of the Jewish state of the [Palestinian] Arabs and their transfer elsewhere .... This requires [the use of] force." (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 192)

As the Israeli Army was entering Eilabun (Palestinian Maronite Christian village) on October 30, 1948, the soldiers went on rampage in the village looting Palestinians properties. In a letter dated January 21st, 1949 sent to the Israeli Minority Affair Ministry by Faraj Diab Surur, the Eilabun's Mukhtar, along with other village notables described the looting and the ethnic cleansing of their village by the Israeli soldiers as the following:

"When the [Israeli] commander selected 12 youngsters (shabab) and sent them to another place, then he ordered that the assembled inhabitants to be led to [al-]Maghar and the priest asked him to leave the women and babies and to take only men, but he refused, and led the assembled inhabitants---some 800 in number--- to [al-]Maghar preceded by military vehicles. . . . He himself stayed on with another two soldiers until they killed the 12 youngsters in the streets of the village and then they joined the army going to [al-]Maghar. He led them to [al-]Frarradiya. When they reached Kafr 'Inan they were joined by an armored car that fired upon them [refugees] . . . killing one of the old men, Sam'an ash Shufani, 60 years old, and injured three women . . . At [al-]Frarradiya [the Israeli soldiers] robbed the inhabitants of IL 500 and the women of their Jewelry, and took 42 youngsters and sent them to a detention camp, and the rest the next day were led to Meirun, and afterward to the Lebanon borders. During this whole time they were given food only once. Imagine then how the babies screamed and the cries of the pregnant and weaning mothers."

As the Israelis rampaged the friendly Palestinian village of Huj (northeast of Gaza), Yitzhak Avira (an old-time Haganah Intelligence Service officer) registered a complained against the continued destruction of the village. He wrote Ezra Danin (a member of the 1st and 2nd Transfer Committees and a Haganah Intelligence Officer) on August 16, 1948 that:

"recently a view has come to prevail among us that the [Palestinian] Arabs are nothing. Every [Palestinian] Arab is a murderer, all of them should be slaughtered, all the [Palestinian] villages that are conquered should be burned . . . I . . . see a danger in the prevalence of an attitude that everything of theirs should be murdered, destroyed, and made to vanish."

Danin Answered: "War is complicated and lacking in sentimentality. If the commanders believe that by destruction, murder, and human suffering they will reach their goal more quickly---I would not stand in their way. If we do not hurry up and do [things]---our enemies will do these things to us." (Benny Morris, p. 167)

It is worth noting that Palestinian inhabitants of Huj had collaborated openly with the Haganah and the Israeli Army before and during the 1948 war, however, such good will did not save them from being ethnically cleansed. Similarly, Zarnuqa (the hometown of the Islamic Jihad founder Fathi al-Shikaki) inhabitants had a comparable experience with the Israelis, and paid the price of their collaboration by being driven out of their village under the threat of the gun towards neighboring Yibna. Sadly, Yibna's people, who were not yet occupied, drove them back to Israeli occupied Zarnuqa, so they became unwanted people by both sides camping in the wadis between the two towns. This is a typical story of collaborators who outlive their usefulness. (Benny Morris, p. 127)

As the Israeli soldiers were occupying the al-Dawayima (northwest of Hebron), the solders perpetrated a mostly unknown massacre on October 28-29, 1948. According the Shabtai Kaplan, a MAPAM party member, and eyewitness accounts, he describe the atrocity to Al Hamishmar editor as the following:

"The first wave of conquerors [89th Battalion of the 8th Brigade] killed about 80-100 [male Palestinian] Arabs, women and children. The children they killed by breaking their heads with sticks. There was no a house without dead," Kaplan wrote. Kaplan's informant , who arrived immediately afterwards in the second wave, reported that the [Palestinian] Arab men and women who remained were then closed off in the houses "without food and water." Sappers arrived to blow up the houses. "One commander ordered a sapper to put two old women in a certain house . . . and to blow up the house with them. The sapper refused . . . The commander then ordered his men to put in the old women and the evil deed was done. One soldier boasted that he had raped a [Palestinian] woman and then shot her. One woman, with a newborn baby in her arms, was employed to clean the courtyard where the soldiers ate. She worked a day or two. In the end they shot her and her baby." The soldier witness, according to Kaplan, said that "cultured officers . . . had turned into base murderers and this not in the heat of the battle . . . but out of system of expulsion and destruction. The lest [Palestinian] Arabs remained---the better. This principle is the political motor of the expulsion and atrocities."
Kaplan under stood that MAPAM in this respect was in bind. The matter could not be publicized; it would harm the State and MAPAM would lambasted for it. (Benny Morris, p. 222-3)

In 1891 Ahad Ha'Am opened many Jewish eyes to the fact the Palestine was not empty, but populated with its indigenous people when he wrote:

"We abroad are used to believe the Eretz Yisrael is now almost totally desolate, a desert that is not sowed ..... But in truth that is not the case. Throughout the country it is difficult to find fields that are not sowed. Only sand dunes and stony mountains .... are not cultivated." (Righteous Victims, p. 42)

Ahad Ha'Am published a series of articles in the Hebrew periodical Hameliz that were sharply critical of the ethnocentricity of political Zionism as well as the exploitation of the Palestinians peasantry by the Zionist colonists. Ahad Ha'Am who sought to draw attention to the fact the Palestine was not empty territory and that the presence of another people posed problems:

" ....[the Zionists pioneers believed that] the only language the Arabs understand is that of force ..... [They] behave towards the Arabs with hostility and cruelty, trespass unjustly upon their boundaries, beat them shamefully without reason and even brag about it, and nobody stands to check this contemptible and dangerous tendency." (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 7)

In a pamphlet under the heading line of "Truth from Palestine" published in 1891, Ahad Ha'Am wrote of how Jewish settlers at the time treated the indigenous Palestinian people:
"[The Jewish settlers] treat the Arabs with hostility and cruelty, trespass unjustly, beat them shamelessly for no sufficient reason, and even take pride in doing so. The Jews were slaves in the land of their Exile, and suddenly they found themselves with unlimited freedom, wild freedom that ONLY exists in a land like Turkey. This sudden change has produced in their hearts an inclination towards repressive tyranny, as always happens when slave rules." 'Ahad Ha'Am warned: "We are used to thinking of the Arabs as primitive men of the desert, as a donkey-like nation that neither sees nor understands what is going around it. But this is a GREAT ERROR. The Arab, like all sons of Sham, has sharp and crafty mind . . . Should time come when life of our people in Palestine imposes to a smaller or greater extent on the natives, they WILL NOT easily step aside." (One Palestine Complete, p. 104) How accurate 'Ahad Ha'Am description was even after more a 100 plus of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict? The conduct of most Israelis, especially in the occupied territories, is very much similar to the way 'Ahad portrayed over a century ago.

Ahad Ha'Am warned that Jewish settlers must under no circumstances arouse the wrath of the natives, he said:

"Yet what do our brethren do in Palestine? Just the very opposite! Serfs they were in the lands of the Diaspora and suddenly they find themselves in unrestricted freedom and this change has awakened in them an inclination to despotism. They treat the Arabs with hostility and cruelty, deprive them of their rights, offend them without cause and even boast of these deeds; and nobody among us opposes this despicable and dangerous inclination ..."
The same lack of understanding he found in the boycott of Arab labor proclaimed by Jewish labor ... "Apart from the political danger, I can't put up with the idea that our brethren are morally capable of behaving in such a way to humans of another people, and unwittingly the thought comes to my mind: if it is so now, what will be our relation to the others if in truth we shall achieve at the end of times power in Eretz Yisrael? And if this be the Messiah: I do not wish to see his coming." (UN: The Origins And Evolution Of Palestine Problem, section II)

Ahad Ha'Am returned to the Arab problem ... in February 1914 ... and he also stated:

"'[the Zionists] wax angry towards those who remind them that there is still another people in Eretz Yisrael that has been living there and does not intend at all to leave its place. In a future when this ILLUSION will have been torn from their hearts and they will look with open eyes upon the reality as it is, they will certainly understand how important this question is and how great our duty to work for its solution." (UN: The Origins And Evolution Of Palestine Problem, section II) But Ahad Ha'Am's plea went unheeded as political Zionism set about to realize its goal of a Jewish State.

In the early 1920s, there was talks of Palestine being part of a large Arab federation, but even Ahad Ha'Am said he would not remain in Palestine if that were to happen:

"Better to die in the Exile than to die here and be buried in the land of fathers, if that land is considered the 'homeland' of the [Palestinian] Arabs and we are strangers in it." (One Palestine Complete, p. 285)

There is much more. In the latest issue of the Jewish Observer, Yonoson Rosenblum writes about the "Zionist Mythology", about how the Zionists make up history. The reason the whole world hates us now is because we Jews are in denial that we were wrong about what we did in Israel. Now its coming back to haunt us. The only question is how we can do Teshuva for it.

MODERATOR Posted - 30 July 2002 22:26


No, WE Jews did not take their land. WE Jews, as represented by our Gedolei Yisroel, did NOT WANT THE LAND - the Gedolim fought hard that the land should NOT be taken by the Zionists.

We are not responsible for what THEY did - the Zionists were the biggest enemies of Jews and Judaism - they sabotaged rescue attempts in WWII letting Jews die because it was better for their movement; they wanted first to propose intermarriage as a solution to the "problem" of anti-Semitism before they suggested Zionism. Just as the Torah Jews can not be held responsible for the acts of the Tzedukim, Karayim, the early Christians, the Yevsekzia and other deviant "Jewish" groups, the Torah Jews are totally not responsible for the acts of the Zionists.

It is true, that the Arabs hate us because of the Zionists, and that is agreed upon by everyone who knows history - including Rav Soloveichik of YU, as quoted elsewhere in this forum - that we all know. But the problem is, the Arabs blame ALL of us for the acts of those who were OUR enemies as well - the Ben Gurions, the Herzls, the Weissmans. They have usurped our identity, passed themselves off as representing Jews and Judaism and now we all suffer.

MODERATOR Posted - 04 September 2002 21:30


it does say that all suffering that Klall Yisroel goes through during Golus shortens the time until Moshiach. Like the hardship of the Jews in Egypt shortened the time they needed to be there.

Now there was a machlokes among the chasidishe Rebbes re how to react to this. Reb Mendel of Riminov ZY"A used to say "Let the suffering happen! As long as Moshiach comes quicker!". His peers disagreed and said that this is not a reason to want more suffering. There is no good reason to accept the suffering of a Jew, even if it will make Moshiach come quicker.

It's interesting that Reb Elchonon Wasserman ZTL wrote about the State of Israel, in repose to the Zionists who said that the State of Israel is going to be the "beginning of the Geulah" (they really said that - no joke! - and they still do today!) that the State of Israel may indeed hasten the Geulah, because since all suffering that happens to the Jews in Golus reduces the time we have to stay in Golus, and the State of Israel is likely to be the biggest suffering that the Jews have experienced all throughout Golus, the fact that there is a State of Israel will surely count to reduce the amount of time we stay in Golus! (Kovetz Maamarim vol. I)

(Note: Reb Elchonon ZTL was killed in WWII. He said this, of course, regarding the then future Zionist State of Israel.)

MODERATOR Posted - 24 November 2002 16:41

Someone just found a translation of some excerpts of Rabbi Kaplan's tape regarding his personal testimony regarding the Chevron massacre of '29. It was posted in the "Zionism" topic in this forum. Pleas refer.

Concurring with this is the famous letter written by Rav Yosef Chaim Zonenfeld ZTL to the United Nations right after the Chevron massacre, stating that he has been living in Palestine for 50 years and has known only peace with the Arabs, that they and the Jews lived satisfactorily together, until the Zionists came and antagonized them with their nationalistic ideas.

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