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ZIONISM-----misc 2

Fonkoozed Posted - 27 May 2002 16:29

Mod, how can we trust the leaders of the State of Israel when they tell us that a war is necessary? They are not religious and as such have no ne'emanus according to halachah.

And the article you cited from Rav Hutner clearly shows that they are in the habit of lying to the Jewish people in order to further their own political agendas regarding Pikuach Nefesh issues, even to the point of rewriting Holocaust history.

And then we see that they are even willing to have Jews killed in order to further their political agendas, like they did in the holocaust, and then turn things around and blame it on the Gedolim.

So if they are willing to kill Jews and lie to Jews and they have no reliability halachicly anyway, then how can any soldier go to war and risk his life, as well as being willing to kill others, based on the word of these Jews liars and criminals?

MODERATOR Posted - 28 May 2002 1:06

You are absolutely correct. We cannot trust them. They have lied to us in the past, causing countless deaths of Jews for their own political agendas or dreams of a "Greater Israel", while making us believe that there was a need to save Jewish lives living in the country. Please see Rav Shach's letter posted in the "Zionism" topic in this forum. We have no reason to believe them when they say that they "need" to send Jews to war. They may or may not need it, you’ll never know.

Their own generals have admitted this.

When Israel attacked Syria, they claimed that Syria was a serious threat to their security and thus to the lives of the Jews living in Israel. Moshe Dayan, who was the Defense Minister in 1967, explained, 10 years later, that the whole idea was a scam - Syria was not a threat to Israel before 1967. Quote: "I know how at least 80% of the incidents with Syria started. We were sending a tractor to the demilitarized zone and we knew the Syrians would shoot." Dayan said that the reason Israel attacked Syria was a desire for more land, not to save any lives at all. The strategy was (again quote): "to grab a piece of land and keep it until the enemy will get tired and give it to us" (Yediot Achronot 4/27/77).

And from another one: “The thesis that the danger of genocide was hanging over us in June 1967 and that Israel was fighting for its physical existence is only bluff, which was born and developed after the war.” (Israeli Gen. Matityahu Peled, Ha’aretz, 3/19/72.)

So they want more land and send Jewish lives into war, while telling the people that they are doing so for security reasons.

Sending Jews into such a war is nothing less than murder.

And even where a war may be for security reasons, writes Rav Shach, you never know if the war could have been avoided and security could have been attained by peaceful means. What they say doesn’t mean anything.

Ani Yehudi Posted - 28 May 2002 2:08

In the end a soldier will, in the larger picture of things, be saving Jewish lives, and I think as long he's doing that L'Shaim Shamayim, and not because some "liars and criminals" said so, it's ok.

MODERATOR Posted - 29 May 2002 15:49

Your assumption that he will be saving lives in the larger picture of things is what is in question here. A war for territory or conquest causes loss of lives, even if it may cause the possession of land. Sending Jews in to such a war to die and to kill is nothing but murder, and we should oppose those who do such things.

And if the war is not valid Halachicly then it doesn’t matter if you do it "l'shem shamayim" - you have no right to put your own life or the lives of others in danger because of some idealism. And if Hashem says it is wrong, then which "shamayim" are you doing it "l'shem"??

More importantly, what we "think" is not good enough to permit the spilling of Jewish blood. Please note that people who would not dare to answer anything more than "I don’t know" when you ask them to Pasken sheailos about Milchiger dishes washed with Fleishige sponges, or business law, gladly have opinions about the Halachic validity of sending Jews to the deaths. That is an incongruity caused by the Yetzer Horah.

Ani Yehudi Posted - 29 May 2002 18:09

As far as I am aware (please tell me if I'm wrong), at the moment the Israeli army is *not* working at conquering more land, but rather trying to stem the ghastly flow of suicide bombers. I believe that at least, is a valid fight.

MODERATOR Posted - 29 May 2002 18:52

That’s what the Israelis say. Most of them, anyway - not all. Who knows if it’s true?

There are others who say - even in the government - that the current activity in the territories is punitive, designed to "punish" the Palestinians in retaliation for the bombings, as opposed to merely weeding out terrorists. If this is true, then their actions, as per logic as well as Chazal's rule of Hisgarus B'Umos will most likely just enrage the Palestinians more, generate more Palestinian nationalism and prove to the Palestinians that the Israelis are tyrants, which will just generate more bombings, in both the short and long term, continuing the cycle of violence and bloodshed and deaths of Jews.

There are those who say - even in Israel - that the activities are excessive, and include things that should not be done, and are being done only to "show the Palestinians who's boss", to beat them into submission. If that’s true, then it will do more bad than good.

Political motives - and the emotional demands of an understandably, unfortunately desperate and hurting Israeli population (a voting population!) to their leadership to do something about the terror. And political ambition - the desire for votes and the loyalty of his party - plays a role.

Then there’s the issue of the "Greater Israel" - "redeeming the land" - and all that Zionist stuff. Those ppl hold that it’s worth losing lives to maintain territory. Meaning, they will make settlements even if those settlements cause the loss of lives by enraging the Palestinians more, and they will attack even if it will cost lives of soldiers as well as encourage other terrorist activity because it’s worth it if they can be bosses over all of Greater Israel.

Then there are the more critical people who say that Sharon is just trying to instigate the Palestinians in order to make an excuse for an all-out war designed to get rid of all of them.

All these things may be factors in the decision to wage war. How in the world can we know what the truth is? Certainly the world of these politicians - atheists with no love for Klal Yisroel but much love for their political careers and their values that run contrary to the values of the Torah - doesn’t prove anything. And their words are all we can go on.

And even after all that, the bigger question is: Was there a way to avoid the bloodshed, even if it means giving back something? That is the big question. And if the answer is "yes" then going to war is simple murder of Jews.

And the people who are in charge of those decisions cannot be relied upon to make them properly.

SAVINGJEWS Posted - 13 June 2002 18:01

The following is from the great Tzadik, Rav Michoel Ber Weissmandel ZTVKL, who dedicated his life to saving Jews from the Holocaust. He also spent much time trying to negate the efforts of the Zionists to prevent Jews from being saved, because if Jews are saved from the Holocaust and do not go to Israel, then it would show that there is not such a need for a Jewish State.

So the Zionists put in much effort and were successful in making sure that other countries do not let in Jews, in order to "prove" that Israel is needed. This is well established history, that the Israelis revisioned after the war. The sources are not anti-Semitic, but rather Torah sources. All of our Gedolim agree that this happened. As do the secular books. Only the pro-Israel/Zionist history is different. Rav Weissmandel was a Tzadik Yesod Olam. These are his words of anguish:


1. IS IT TRUE that in 1941 and again in 1942, the German Gestapo offered all European Jews transit to Spain, if they would relinquish all their property in Germany and Occupied France; on condition that:

a) none of the deportees travel from Spain to Palestine; and
b) all the deportees be transported from Spain to the USA or British colonies, and there to remain; with entry visas to be arranged by the Jews living there; and
c) $1000.00 ransom for each family to be furnished by the Agency, payable upon the arrival of the family at the Spanish border at the rate of 1000 families daily.

2. IS IT TRUE that the Zionist leaders in Switzerland and Turkey received this offer with the clear understanding that the exclusion of Palestine as a destination for the deportees was based on an agreement between the Gestapo and the Mufti.

3. IS IT TRUE that the answer of the Zionist leaders was negative, with the following comments:

a) ONLY Palestine would be considered as a destination for the deportees.
b) The European Jews must accede to suffering and death greater in measure than the other nations, in order that the victorious allies agree to a "Jewish State" at the end of the war.
c) No ransom will be paid

4. IS IT TRUE that this response to the Gestapo's offer was made with the full knowledge that the alternative to this offer was the gas chamber.

5. IS IT TRUE that in 1944, at the time of the Hungarian deportations, a similar offer was made, whereby all Hungarian Jewry could be saved.

6. IS IT TRUE that the same Zionist hierarchy again refused this offer (after the gas chambers had already taken a toll of millions).

7. IS IT TRUE that during the height of the killings in the war, 270 Members of the British Parliament proposed to evacuate 500,000 Jews from Europe, and resettle them in British colonies, as a part of diplomatic negotiations with Germany.

8. IS IT TRUE that this offer was rejected by the Zionist leaders with the observation "Only to Palestine!"

9 IS IT TRUE hat the British government granted visas to 300 rabbis and their families to the Colony of Mauritius, with passage for the evacuees through Turkey. The "Jewish Agency" leaders sabotaged this plan with the observation that the plan was disloyal to Palestine, and the 300 rabbis and their families should be gassed.

10. IS IT TRUE that during the course of the negotiations mentioned above, Chaim Weitzman, the first "Jewish statesman" stated: "The most valuable part of the Jewish nation is already in Palestine, and those Jews living outside Palestine are not too important". Weizman's cohort, Greenbaum, amplified this statement with the observation "One cow in Palestine is worth more than all the Jews in Europe".

There are additional similar questions to be asked of these atheist degenerates known as "Jewish statesmen", but for the time being let them respond to the ten questions.

These Zionist "statesmen" with their great foresight, sought to bring an end two two-thousand years of Divinely ordained Jewish subservience and political tractability. With their offensive militancy, they fanned the fires of anti-Semitism in Europe, and succeeded in forging a bond of Jew-hatred between Nazi-Germany and the surrounding countries.

These are the "statesmen" who organized the irresponsible boycott against Germany in 1933. This boycott hurt Germany like a fly attacking an elephant - but it brought calamity upon the Jews of Europe. At a time when America and England were at peace with the mad-dog Hitler, the Zionist "statesmen" forsook the only plausible method of political amenability; and with their boycott incensed the leader of Germany to a frenzy. And then, after the bitterest episode in Jewish history, these Zionist "statesmen" lured the broken refugees in the DP camps to remain in hunger and deprivation, and to refuse relocation to any place but Palestine; only for the purpose of building their State.

The Zionist "statesmen" have incited and continue to incite an embittered Jewish youth to futile wars against world powers like England, and against masses of hundreds of millions of Arabs.


What may befall the Jewish inhabitants of Palestine, of the Arab crescent, Europe, or the USA; is of no concern to these Zionist leaders. The rising anti-Semitism in the Western World is the product of their "statesmanship".

Under the guise of "love of Israel", the Zionist "statesmen" seduced many Jews to replace devotion to the Torah and its Sages with devotion to the scoundrel who founded Zionism. It is of no little significance that Herzl originally sought conversion of the Jews as a solution to the problems of the Diaspora. When he realized that this was not acceptable to the Jewish masses, he contrived Zionism as a satisfactory alternative!

A look into history reveals that this very same type of "statesmen" opposed the call of Jeremiah the prophet to yield to the minions of Nebuchadnezzar at the destruction of the first Temple.

Five centuries later, Rabbi Yochonon Ben Zakai appealed to the people to surrender to Titus the Roman to avoid bloodshed. The "statesmen" rejected this appeal, and the second Temple was destroyed by the Romans. - And now for the past fifty years, the Zionist "statesmen" rebuff the leadership of our Sages; and continue in their policy of fomenting anti-Semitism. When will they stop?? Must every Jew in America also suffer?? - Even the Nazi monsters had more sense, and gave up their war before all Germany was destroyed.

he Zionist "statesmen" ridicule the sacred oath which the Creator placed upon the Jews in the Diaspora. Our Torah, in Tractate Kesuvos, folio 111, specifies that the Creator, blessed be He, enswore the Jews not to occupy the Holy Land by force, even if it appears that they have the force to do so; and not rebel against the Nations.

And the Creator warned that if His oath be desecrated, Jewish flesh would be "open property", like the animals in the forest!! These are words of our Torah; and these concepts have been cited in Maimonides' "Igeres Teimon", "Be'er HaGola", "Ahavas Yehonosson", and in "Toras Moshe" of the Chasam Sofer.


Yidden - merciful sons of merciful fathers - how much longer must holy Jewish blood continue to be shed??

The only solution is:

1.The Jewish people must reject, outright, a "Jewish State".

2.The Jewish people should accept the US compromise.

3.We must depose the atheist-Zionist "statesmen" from their role as Jewish leaders, and return to the faithful leadership of our sages.

4.We beseech the Nations to open all doors to immigration - not only the doors of Palestine.

5.Peaceful, non-Zionist religious personalities in Palestine, (particularly from the native population) and their counterparts in the Diaspora, should engage in responsible, face-to face negotiations on behalf of the Jewish people, with the British and the Arabs; with an aim of amicable settlement of the Palestine issue.
Every Jew is obliged to pray to the Blessed creator, for in Him lies all our strength. Let us bear in mind that our prayers be forthright. One should not entreat the Creator to provide a banquet on Yom Kippur, and one can not perform a ritual ablution with a dead bug in his hand. Similarly, we should avoid the untenable position of the robber who prays for Divine help in carrying out his crime. We should pray that Zionism and its fruits vanish from the Earth, and that we be redeemed by the Messiah with dispatch.

A prisoner is released only when he has served his time, or if he is pardoned by the President for good behavior. If he attempts escape and is apprehended, his term is lengthened, besides the beating he receives when he is caught.

Faithful Jews - for over three and one-half thousand years, in all parts of the world, through all trials, our grandfathers and grandmothers marched through seas of blood and tears in order to keep the Faith of the Torah unswervingly.

If we have compassion for ourselves, for our women and children, and for the Jewish people, we will maintain our golden legacy today. We have been sentenced to exile by the King of Kings because of our sins. The eternal blessed be He, has decreed that we accept the exile with humble gratitude until the time comes, or until we merit His pardon through repentance if we seek to end the exile with force, G-d will catch us, as our sages have forewarned, and our sentence becomes longer and more difficult.

Many times in the past have segments of our people been defrauded by false messiahs - but none of the false messiahs has been as fallacious and delusory as the lie of Zionism. With our historical experience as our guide, no retribution has been or will be greater than the retribution for giving credence to Zionism. If we wish our exile-sentence commuted, we must appeal through repentance; and through total physical and spiritual observance of the Sabbath, laws of family purity, and study of Torah.

Let it be clearly understood that never in Jewish history (even in the time of Jeroboam or Achav) have such hostile atheists stood at the helm of the Jewish people as today.

How can we plead to the Almighty for mercy while we tolerate these vile, "wicked" leaders as spokesmen! Beloved brothers - let us cleanse our ranks and cleanse our midst; let us entreat the Almighty through prayer, repentance, and fulfillment of mitzvos that He alone redeem us, His people, immediately.

May Hashem our G-d avenge the blood of all those who perished in the Holocaust !
May we merit to see them once again with the coming of Moshiach speedily in our days !

rik Posted - 29 May 2003 20:52

Hold on- when you say that Jews should fight against a Jewish state how does the Jewish land come into that- as in- now that we have the freedom to travel to our holy land, are we even permitted to give it back? plus- what about ppl who support the Jewish LAND and not the STATE?

Secondly, how can we accept the US's compromise? How can we accept the compromise of any nation on this planet? How do we know who is truly righteous in this world?

How can we trust any of the world leaders? we can only place our complete trust in G-d- so.....?

I don’t get it- can't Zionism and all that actually be the start of the redemption, after all when Nehemiah and Ezra started to rebuild the temple, it was the non-believers who went with, as they need such beliefs to hold onto as they have nothing else-

Similarly perhaps this Zionist movement was bought about by ppl who are completely opposed to religion- but how do we know this isn’t the beginning of the redemption?

Please don’t disregard my questions- I’m really curious about these points- whether they seem silly to you or not.

MODERATOR Posted - 29 May 2003 21:03

I don’t know what supporting land means. Why would you support land?

The diff between Ezra and the Zionists is not the religious part -- it’s that with Ezra there was a prophecy that the Golus was over. Presently we are commanded not to make a State in Eretz Yisroel. Plus the Gemora in Sanhedrin says that Moshiach will not come until the Jews have no states at all. So not only is it not the beginning of the Geulah it actually prolongs the Golus.

Rav Elchonon Wasserman writes, tongue in cheek of course, that the only way the State is going to hasten the redemption is according to the GRA who writes that any suffering the Jews have in Golus counts as "credit" against time in Golus - and since the State of Israel is likely to be the greatest suffering the Jews ever had in their 2,000 years of exile, we should get a lot of time in golus reduced because of it.

As far as compromises is concerned, we are obligated to do anything that will save lives and bring peace. It has nothing to do with who is righteous or not.

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