ZIONISM-----state creates chilul hashem

tovtovtov Posted - 05 September 2002 19:51

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You write: “the people that run the government there have no right to violate the torah and no right to put Jews in danger and no right to even present themselves as representative of the Jewish people"

You said somewhere else that Israel is a secular state like any other, and then you complain that it is not being run as a theocracy (like in Iran perhaps?).

And to finish, you seem to be saying that it shouldn’t really exist anyway, or at lest not until Hashem manifests himself and makes it happen for us.

So, secular state? Theocracy? No state? What is it you want exactly? (Right now, that is, not at some hypothetical future date when the Messiah arrives)

And by the way, I don’t think any leader in Israel presents himself as a “representative of the Jewish people”. I think they are representatives of the “Israeli government” . So who are you criticizing exactly?

MODERATOR Posted - 05 September 2002 20:12

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No state. That would have been the best.

But now that there is a state, when they violate the Torah it creates - besides the violation itself - a big chilul hashem. It adds insult to injury that not only do they make a state but they call it "Jewish" even though it is secular.

They represent Jewry all the time. When Germany wanted to give reparation money to the Jewish people, they didn’t give it to Yeshivos or orphanages, but to the "Jewish State". Even today, when Sharon gets accused (indicted!) of war crimes, he says "This is a libel against the Jewish people!"

When Netanyahu responded recently to the claim that the "international community" will not be happy if they don’t give the Palestinians a state, he said, "International community? They and where was the international community during the holocaust?".

(Yeah, well they were the same place the Zionists were - not on the side of the Jews, but on their own side.)

They claim it is the official homeland of the Jewish People, to the point where they decide whoever is "Jewish" may have a place there - and their idea of "Jewish" is nothing but. They’ve actually re-defined what the definition of a Jew is. Only a religion can define what the requirements for its followers are - the world knows that - and the State has taken it upon itself to do that job.

The Zionists are constantly saying that "Israel" gives the assimilated or would-be assimilated Jews a "Jewish" identity.

To the world, Israel is the representative of the Jewish people. What they do reflects the collective voice of the Jews.

When the word is upset with Israel, they automatically think they are upset with the Jews. They burn down synagogues in France because they’re angry (rightfully or wrongfully) with what Israel does in the territories.

I am not responsible for what Sharon those not following Judaism do. I did not elect them to represent me, and nobody elected them to represent Judaism or Jews. Merely to govern a secular country politically. AN attack on him is NOT an attack on all Jews.