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ZIONISM / ANTI-----achdus and the beryonim

israel-phile gal Posted - 07 November 2002 5:15

Oooookkkkkkkkk…. I’m sorry, but after reading what everyone has been saying , I had to say something. First of all I don’t think there is anything wrong with Zionism. It says: oolizar’acha eten et haaretz hazot” whether or not we’re in galut the land is still ours but has been temporarily taken from us, as a father would take a privilege from a child that has misbehaved. The child may still long for the privilege & dream of it, & do everything in his power to pretend he still has it- until the time comes when his punishment is over & the privilege is returned. I can understand why people would oppose the Israeli government, because of all their lurid laws or laws that were not passed because of them.

Our Chachamim are always saying that whatever we need to know, we can learn from our forefathers, & that everything that is written in Tanach is because it’s: “hootzrichu li'dorot” needed for future generations.

We see that after galut Bavel, Nebuchadnezzar left a small group of Jews in Israel & put them under the rule of Gedaliah. From here I can derive that there is absolutely nothing wrong with living in Eretz Yisrael bizman galut under Jewish rule. you may then say that the Jews were not really under Jewish rule- but rather under the Babylonian. But coming right back at you I ask, in Israel today- are we truly ruled by only the Israeli government? I mean come on! Has any prime minister, or any government official ever done anything without the US & the united nations consent?

We say we’re our own democratic country, which we may be in some ways, but any laws, or wars or anything that does not concern the immediate citizens there (i.e. any terror problems from Arabs) is decided by the world for us- we don’t follow up on what we want to do, which is one reason why we- the people are so unsatisfied with our government.

But even so, one might still say that we don’t learn any such thing from Gedaliah- because we see that quite shortly, they are all taken 2 galut, because of Gedaliah’s being murdered. From this I learn that we must not strike at our government. Who ever gave us the right to decide whether someone is chayav mitah or not?! That’s G-d’s job, & in the time of the Bet HaMikdash, it was also the job of the Sanhedrin. But how are we to know the reasoning behind everything?

For an example- when a baby gets a shot- he screams, kicks, & uses all his strength to squirm out of your hands. But when you give a shot to a 15 or 16 yr old (I should hope!) that they will be more quiet & sensible because they know that although they must undergo a few seconds of pain- they may be saving themselves from long periods of pain- or even a terminal illness. We don’t see the whole picture, therefore we are not ones to judge. We don’t understand yet the tachlit behind G-d’s doing.

When I see a group of “Jews” petitioning right outside a rally that is supporting & giving strength & hope to our brothers in Israel, I feel like spitting in their face. If they are so religious then what happened to that little something called chilul Hashem, which I can’t find a greater one than when Jews are fighting against other Jews publicly. Have we forgotten why the 2nd bet HaMikdash was destroyed? 24,000 talmidei chachamim (if I’m not mistaken) died in a short period of time all due to sin’at chinam,

I think from here, we should be able to obtain the fact that it’s very nice & all to be a great torah scholar- but G-d is showing us that sin’at chinam is more important to him. As it says in pirkei avot: “yafa lilmod torah eem derech eretz sheyigee’at shneihem bimeeshkachat avon, vichol hamilamed torah bli derech eretz….” Meaning that it’s very nice to learn torah with derech eretz – that you need to have the two of them together, and that whoever learns torah & doesn’t “practice what he preaches,” it’s useless…

When the satmar rav or whoever, goes & meets with Arafat (Yimach Shimo!!) to congratulate him on a job well done- 1st of all- chilul Hashem is not even comprehendible anymore. People all over the world seeing a “Jewish rav” shaking hands with one of the greatest terrorists of all times, they start thinking/accusing us of being the cause of all these other terrorist attacks such as September 11, because we seem to be so friendly with them. Besides, this guy is saying to Arafat kol hakavod on killing & ruining so many lives, breaking down so many families. He’s telling him to keep it up. I do believe we happen to have a mitzvah that we are not to stand by idle when Jewish blood is being shed, so causing Jewish blood to be perished is a given!

If G-d really didn’t want us to have Israel why would he have made such miracles such as in 1948, 1967, 1973, & all those daily bombs that have been stopped from detonating, all those miracles G-d has shown us to give us hope & encouragement?!?

Obviously, we were put in this whole situation for a reason, our duty is not to change our problem, which leaves us with so many side effects & is such a waste of energy, but rather to SOLVE the problem. Why is G-d doing all this, I don’t know. It’s obviously a wake up call- to us- to the Jewish nation that it’s about time for us to unite. Instead of pushing off the problem or pretending it doesn’t exist, & therefore only causing it to grow, it’s up to us, to face them, with determined faces- for we are determined- determined to UNITE & to bring Moshiach bimiheira viyameinu (amen!), & if we can unite through Zionism, through showing support, & love to our home & family, if we can unite through being proud of our country- then we must.

MODERATOR Posted - 07 November 2002 7:11

The problem with Zionism is that Jews having their own country in Israel during Golus is prohibited under the Oath of shelo yaalu b'chomah, and in the case of Israel, the Oath of Hisgarus b'umos as well.

Plus, it costs the lives of thousands upon thousands of Jews in order to maintain the state. Your post does nothing to answer any of that.

Gedaliah has nothing to do with our situation because as you say, Gedaliah was under the rule of Bavel; he did not have an independent Jewish State. The fact that America has great influence over Israel does not negate Israel's status as a sovereign State, which is the problem. Bavel wasn’t merely a powerful influence over Gedaliah, but rather the official federal government. There is no comparison.

As far as Jews "fighting against other Jews publicly" being a chilul hashem, it depends why they are opposing those other Jews. If Jews go around putting other Jews in danger by antagonizing the non-Jewish nations and make all sorts of statements in the name of "Jewry", like the Zionists do, then you have full right to tell the world, "Hello, those people do NOT represent Jewry, or Judaism, and do not blame us for their misdeeds, for we oppose them."

I suppose that you would think that Rav Yochanan ben Zakai made a chilul Hashem for telling the Romans that he opposes the Baryonim - and that he would even kill them if he had the chance. You cant have a more public display of "Jews fighting other Jews" than the leader of one segment of Jewry telling the enemy general, during war time, that he would kill his own people in order to make peace with the enemy, right?

If Jews put other Jews in danger, and opposing them will alleviate that danger, you have an obligation to oppose them - that is not a chilul hashem, it is undoing a chilul hashem.

And why is their opposition to Zionists sinas chinam but not your opposition to them? Why is your "wanting to spit in their faces" any less a lack of derech eretz and an expression of sinas chinam than what they say about the Zionists? Is it because you believe they are doing something wrong and you oppose that? Now you understand their position.

If a group of Neturei Karta people were publicly burning the Israeli flag, with television coverage, complete with anti-Zionist speakers addressing all of the USA, would you consider it a chilul hashem if the National Council of Young Israel protested along side them saying "what they are doing is wrong! they do not represent us! Don’t believe them that this is Judaism!"? Suddenly publicly opposing Jews would not be a chilul hashem? Or would you want to spit in the faces of the Young Israel protestors as well?

And nobody is telling Arafat kol hakavod for killing. That is simply slander. When they protest along with the Arabs it is wrong (see my post of yesterday) but they are not promoting the killing of anyone - on the contrary - they are telling the Arabs that they want all the killing to stop, and that they would gladly give back the entire country for peace, which is the same thing that Rav Yochanan ben Zakai told Aspasyanus.

(The problem is, giving back the land will not make peace!). And the Arabs are fully aware that this is their position. Many Arabs have stopped hating Jews because of this, and one suicide-bomber wannabe even decided, because of them, not to go through with her mission. The hostages in Iran were given miraculously lenient sentences largely because of the efforts of these people explaining to the Iranian authorities that the hostages are not Zionists and therefore not the enemy.

The Zionists did indeed generate the lethal animosity of the Arabs, the way the Baryonim did with the Romans - and they are trying to undo that. Unfortunately, the situation is not the same as it was then - the Zionists have created a much bigger danger than the Baryonim ever did, since they succeeded in convincing the world that "the Jews" want to own Eretz Yisroel, which even the Baryonim could not do with the Romans. It is ironic that the Neturei Karta's error is that they underestimate the evil that the Zionists have accomplished.

And it is indeed a fact that it is because of the State of Israel that the Arabs want to kill the Jews - as quoted here many times, that fact was even conceded by Rav J.B.Soloveitchik, in public, at the Mizrachi convention (documented in Five Addresses, p.79). Rav Soloveitchik also referred to the anti-Zionist point that it is forbidden to have a State simply because its existence causes the deaths of so many Jews as "lechorah taanah chazakah me'od" (apparently a very strong accusation). In Nefesh Harav, by Rabbi Hershel Shechter, it is recorded how Rav Soloveichik struggled to try to find a way to justify Israel's existence in view of this. But he admitted, in the end, that the State indeed causes the deaths of many many Jews.

As far as the so-called miracles, this was discussed many times here. I suppose that because G-d allowed Hitler to kill six million Jews despite all odds - his rise to power and success in his endeavors was as much a "miracle" as any Zionist military victory - that G-d agrees with the Nazis? That He agrees with Hitler? Or the fact that Arafat has miraculously been saved from numerous attempts by Israel to kill him, never mind once having his private plane crash and walking out unscratched means that G-d agrees with Arafat?

Are you aware that among the Palestinians and Arabs they teach their children about "miracles" done to save and assist their people - and they use it as "proof" that Allah is on their side? And the reality is, their 'miracles" are just as amazing as Israel's.

Miracles prove nothing. The Gemora says that G-d allows idol worshippers to perform miracles for their constituents as a Nisayon. Miracles have been done for evil doers throughout the ages. For whatever reason, G-d wants Arafat alive now, G-d chose to allow Hitler to do what he did - none of that means G-d agrees with them. And because Israel wins a war doesn’t mean G-d agrees with them.

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