ZIONISM-----discussion w/ phile gal 2

israel-phile gal Posted - 08 November 2002 7:09

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The difference between what the Neturei Karta & I feel/are doing, is that I said I feel like spitting in their faces- whereas, they actually do things that show sinat chinam. Whether or not they feel that they are violating the mitzvah loh taaseh- of sinat chinam & of letting their fellow brothers & sisters get killed- (which I’m sure u don’t agree with me on, because u feel they are preventing it) when they go & meet with Arafat- they are, whether you believe it or not making the Arabs feel that it’s ok w/ Jews to kill other Jews, & that they can go on & do what they want. & not only that people who don’t realize all the details you claim that are the goal of the Neturei Karta, see it as “hey look, the Jews not only try to prevent their own kind from getting killed but they are promoting it & are in favor of it as well!” not good.

Besides I can see that you have not read what I wrote with concentration, because I stated that as much as I may oppose or feel what they are doing is wrong, I would never dare publicly oppose them, or state it to the entire world…why? Not because I am unsure of what I believe in- but rather because I don’t know what G-d wants- & sorry to say but neither do you, nor anyone else. I read what you answered with an open mind, & I can understand where you are coming from, but I also do know that G-d won us those wars- 1948, 1967, 1973- pure miracles! An even you cant disagree with me on that! Big Rabbonim say that mashiach would have come in ’67, had it not been for the Israeli army & government’s gaava- & acting as if it was all them. So yes, I disagree with thing the government does- because there are many anti religious people running it. When I say I support the state of Israel- I’m saying, I support the fact that we have our own country, I support & believe the fact that G-d wants us to have Israel, otherwise He would have acted differently than He did…or maybe not- I don’t know, but the point is neither do you. When mashiach comes (& may he come now- because we definitely need him!) we will understand- as we see over & over again- tayku- we may have our opinions, but we cannot decide who or what is wrong & right- FOR OTHER PEOPLE. Our goal right now, is try to get other Jews to feel apart of us- & not to resent the religion, our goal right now is to control sinat chinam- the reason we were sent out of eretz yisrael .

Israel did not just “win a war” as u put it, they have won incredible wars- & not just one time! I’m sorry, I stated that wrong- G-d won for us & the state of Israel many wars…As for what u said with Hitler- I believe that Hitler (yimach shemo) was sent by G-d, yes, because before the zman of mashiach we need to go through as certain period of suffering- I believe that was it. I believe that was supposed to be our preparation for mashiach who should have come many years ago… & don’t tell me that it’s the Zionists fault Mashiach is not coming- because we all have a certain responsibility, & mashiach will come when we fix the chet, the sin, that caused us to lose the bet hamikdash- sinat chinam…if what your saying is true, does that mean you feel that Jews shouldn’t live in Israel? Because hey- we’re not allowed to be there- it’s against the g’marah. Tell me then how do you explain the fact that so many of gedolai & chachamai yisrael lived in Israel?

I’m sorry if this sounds chutzpadic, or disrespectful but it wasn’t meant to. I write this with the utmost respect, I think you’ve done a wonderful job on the website- but I disagree quite strongly on this point. The reason it may have come out really badly is because my emotions right now are just soaring, & I cant think straight right now- which is why this will probably not come out right, but I still felt that in order to release my upsetness I had to write back now…

MODERATOR Posted - 08 November 2002 7:45

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Sinah - hate - doesn’t have to be an action. The feeling itself that you would like to spit in the face of another Jew, is itself a violation, as the Torah states, "lo sisnah es achichah bilvavechah". In fact, the Ramban says that this means if you harbor hate for a fellow Jew, you must tell him explicitly, because the prohibition is only harboring that hate inside of you, not if it is brought out.

We surely do know what Hashem wants - that’s why He gave us the Torah. You believe that G-d doesn’t want us to drive on Shabbos? To eat pig? That we should fast on Yom Kippur? The same as we know all that, we know about the prohibitions of Zionism.

And if you do not know, as you claim, what Hashem really wants, then you have no right to write such posts condemning other Jews for doing something that you yourself don’t even know to be wrong. There is no prohibition in the Torah for going against what israel-phile gal believes; only for going against what Hashem believes. If, as you say, we don’t know what Hashem believes, then everyone is entitled to do anything, and nobody has a right to condemn them.

The miracles that you describe, are (a) not relevant, and (b) negligible as miracles. They are not relevant because miracles are made even for evil doers, and even to assist people in doing aveiros. The Bnei Efriam, for instance, left Egypt before the Golus was over, and as a punishment they were all killed in the desert. We know that it was impossible for anyone to escape Egypt (real mem/mem sofit etc.) and so their escaping from that superpower was a clear and unquestionable miracle. Yet it helped them leave the golus early which was a terrible sin for which they were all killed.

Incidentally, the sin of leaving the Golus early, Chazal say, was the violation of the same Oaths that tell us not to take Eretz Yisroel as a State during Golus. They succeeded in violating the Oath then, miraculously, you say that when the Zionists did it, it was miraculous as well. Even if so, just as that fact did not help the Bnei Ephraim, there is no reason to assume it would help us.

And, as I said, the Palestinians have experienced an equal and opposite amount of "miracles" as well, which they use in their Palestinian schools to "show" that Allah is on the side of suicide bombers.

But those miracles weren’t real miracles at all. As I explained elsewhere, "great success" and blessing is not the same as a miracle. Documents from the Truman administration (posted in the Zionist section here) state that US intelligence said that in '48 although the odds are in favor of the Arabs in a war against the Jews, it is quite possible that the Jews, due to much greater organization and Arab lack thereof, would win. They said it would be no more surprising than the victory that Russia had over Hitler.

And at the outset of the 6 day war, President Johnson had predicted that Israel would win within a week. The Satmar Rebbe ZTL commented on the Zionist claim of miracles, "If the victory was a miracle, then Johnson must be a Navi!"

If you see or hear people using the term "nisim" in the context of our survival in Israel, it is to be taken in one of two contexts: either as a "loshon mushal" - not really meant literally, such as when we say "I had nissim today when my car broke down and the tow truck happened to arrive 2 minutes later", which is of course not a miracle, or in the general sense of Jews surviving among the nations as a sheep against 70 wolves, which is true with or without the state of Israel ,and has been, for 2,000 years.

What you are correct about is that we cannot know from historical events what G-d wants - we can only know from the Torah. For someone who claims we do not know what G-d wants, you seem very comfortable in claiming that the "miracles" for Israel demonstrates that G-d wants it. Only through the Torah can we determine what G-d wants - not through "miracles." Everyone gets miracles, and sine they come without the benefit of commentaries from Chazal and Rishonim, the way the torah does, they can be interpreted any way we like. They tell us nothing in and of themselves.

Regarding your psychoanalysis of the Arab reaction to Jews meeting with Arafat, the reality is, the existence of those Jews are covered in just about every Arab newspaper, magazine, and website; and not a single one confirms your opinion. On the contrary - across the board, they interpret those Jews to be interested in peace, against all killings, including and especially that of Jews, but against the Jewish control of the land. Your opinion is what the Baryonim surely said about Rav Yochanan ben Zakai sneaking out of the city against the "army's" orders and greeting the enemy, even calling their general "King". The Baryonim even tried to kill RYB"Z rather than let him do this because it went against their policy of not giving back Jerusalem.

So too, by the way, did the Zionists murder Dr. Dehaan when Rav Yosef Chaim Zonenfeld sent him on a peace mission to the Arabs to explain to them that the Jews are NOT interested in taking the land form the Arabs, and that we do not support the acts of the Zionists.

You are assuming that the Arabs want to kill Jews for no reason at all, just out of sinah or anti-Semitism or whatever; the reality is that the Arabs want to kill the Jews for the same reason that the Indians wanted to kill the settlers - they took their land, plain and simple. And just as it didn’t matter that England wanted a "Jewish home" in Palestine, it also didn’t matter that England wanted colonies in America. We were warned by our Gedolim in pre-Israel times that if the Zionists do indeed take the land, it will be more of a deathtrap r"l than a safe haven.

G-d told us not to do it; our Tzadikim warned us to listen to G-d. Let us be grateful to Hashem that He has not punished us the way He has punished the Bnei Efraim for violating the same sin. Let's be grateful to Him for the "miracles" that He send to save Jewish lives, despite His warning that if we make a Jewish State, He will "allow us to be hunted down like game in the field". We should thank Hashem for being ma'arich ahf - and at the very least, show Him, in gratitude for the "miracles" that He has shown us, that we do not support that which G-d opposes or those who oppose Him.

PS - No reliable person ever said that Moshiach would have come in '67 etc. That was plain Zionist rhetoric, as usual, baseless and without a source.