CHIZUK-----judaism is not for me
ekant Posted - 13 August 2002 17:37
I have a problem with Judaism. With the way you frum people see it.
I should tell you that I was brought up very religious, and that my family still is.
But not me. I can't.
Religion, the way I see it, has only been a source of frustration.
Always.
I remember when I was a little kid; I already used to feel that way. Going to school on Sunday, having such a long day of school the rest of the week (Hebraic and secular studies), and many other things that we were doing differently than the goyim. I was so jealous.
They were
I don't think like a Jew. I have pulsions. I can't kill them like Judaism wants me to. (And yes it DOES by forbidding teenagers to go out with each other).
Since I'm about 12, I think of girls. A lot. One of the things I hate most is the way religious people see the relationship boys-girls. I think that's the first reason why I stopped everything. I needed sooo bad to have a contact with girls. And I wasn't allowed to while the goyim, well, they looked so happy.
I remember once I saw a couple kissing, they were my age (14yrs old). That killed me. Still does, and I'm 18. Because I feel like my parents, by the school they put me in and the education they gave me ruined my childhood.
Honestly, I don't understand the rules that the rabbis made. Maybe some boys can keep them, but I am not able to. I am not. And they frighten me. Because I've seen so much happiness in the "other world". Sure, being with a girl can cause some trouble, but it brings so much. And I refuse to wait, even until im 20. I REFUSE to restrain, even if I’m going to hell for that.
I fell in love with a girl when I was 16 (who happened not to be Jewish), and we stayed together for a year. It was the happiest year of my life. Now it's over, partly because of my frum friends who (almost) forced me to brake off with her. Of course, since I had to go out with a goya (no Jewish girl has ever wanted to go out with me), I had to stop practicing all the mitzvos.
I don’t wanna talk about my life here, but I think I could've been a good Jew and a good person if only I could've had a NORMAL relationship with girls when I was younger.
Is that so terrible, after all? And if it is, then I let you know that Judaism is NOT for everyone.
MODERATOR Posted - 14 August 2002 15:18
ekant,
Come join the rest of the world - the religious world - for you and they - us - are all in the same boat. This "girl" thing has been here for over five thousand years and will continue to be here till the end of time. Every single person on this planet - Jew and non-Jew, religious and not religious - has the same hormones that you do. And the same battles. And part of the battle is the illusion that it cannot be won.
No, nobody is asking you to kill your "pulsions" (there should be such a word, but currently there isn’t). Just not to give in to them. And although it is hard - for you and everyone else - we are still obliged to try as hard as we can.
Part of the battle is the illusion that you need girls, that if you don’t have them, something bad will happen to you, like if you don’t have food. That’s a false feeling. Kind of like when your car suddenly skids on an ice patch and your "pulsions" tell you that you really must slam on the brake. It’s a big illusion of the emotions and hormones. Like a drug, really. But you gotta fight the trip.
The reason you need to fight is, because just like listening to your body when it tells you to slam on the brakes will kill you, this will, too. But slowly.
Those people are not happy. At the time they may be enjoying themselves, but that enjoyment ends quickly. Then they have to find something that a bit more stimulating because once you do that kind of thing, and once you get used to it, the same "need" you had for it now grows and you now "need" more than you did before to reach the same level of enjoyment.
Just like drugs.
That’s why, strewn along the path of pleasure that these people travel, there is a slowly growing sense of despair and emptiness, which , in the end, is always a dead end.
There is more depression, loneliness, mental illness, frustration, and dissatisfaction with life among the secular, and you don’t need to be a sociologist to see that (although all the studies that they’ve done near this out, duh).
There is no pleasure in the world like the accomplishment of overcoming obstacles building yourself up spiritually emotionally and mentally. There is no enjoyment in the world like a nachasdik frum family. There are no riches the world like the awareness that Hashem gives you whatever is best for you to have, and that you are living under the watchful eye of His hashgocho protis.
There is no reason to be jealous of anyone in this world, since you know that Hashem gives everyone exactly what is maximally best for them.
But it takes work. Building your soul is like building your body. When you start, as a 120 pound weakling, working out in the gym, its painful and exhausting. you’re jealous of the guys partying while you’re sitting there lifting weights. They’re having fun, and you’re busy with this nonsense.
But as time goes on, your body starts liking the weights, you start liking them, and as you see your body adapt to the work it is doing, it becomes perhaps your greatest satisfaction. You suddenly look forward to your time in the gym, and your body itself craves it. And even while you’re struggling painfully to complete that last rep, you are so happy that you’re growing, accomplishing, struggling for achievement, that you would never give up that struggle for a night in front of the TV.
And eventually, it is your friends who will be jealous of you, when they see you walking down the street, and not vice versa.
The same thing, infinitely more so, applies to working out your Neshoma. And the happiness and enjoyment of creating and possessing of a healthy, robust, powerful Jewish soul are there not only in this world, but forever and ever for millions and millions of years in the next world as well.
Your struggle is not hopeless. At the beginning, it may seem so, just like the beginner in the gym never believes he will ever lift his own weight. But the choice is up to him - and you - to continue of to give up.
Please don’t give up. Its really not worth it. Not in this world, and surely not in the next.
And you can win. Just keep trying.
ekant Posted - 17 October 2002 7:36
First, I want to thank you all for replying to my post.
After reading this page, I got so depressed.
For 2 weeks, I didn't get out of my room, and just slept all day and kept drinking (I hate alcohol, it just makes me sleep).
I already knew exactly what you would answer, all of you.
So I'd like to respond;
"we are still obliged to try as hard as we can".
Why ? why should I? I don’t fear hell. It's a Christian concept. You believe that the need for girls is just an "illusion". Wake up! It's a real need. Just as eating more than bread and water became a need for you. Yes, again, a need.
Because of the society you live in. You need it psychologically, which is even stronger
than the physical needs.
You compare girls to drugs. That's true, for some people. Just like a cup of wine per day is healthy, and a bottle of vodka isn't.
It is normal, sane, and even healthy to go out with girls, usually at the age of 14-15, according to psychiatrists (at least the ones I saw).
Now you religious people don't accept that, saying that it's only an illusion. Maybe it was, 200 years ago, but not in the world I live in.
"There is more depression, loneliness, mental illness, frustration, and dissatisfaction with life among the secular" ;
Where did you see that ? I know goyim probably more than you do, my best friends used to be goyim, and I found them much much better than a lot of Jews that I've seen in Yeshiva.
"There is no reason to be jealous of anyone in this world, since you know that Hashem gives everyone exactly what is maximally best for them."
That's too easy. "Religion is the opium of people", does that remind you of anything?
"And the happiness and enjoyment of creating and possessing of a healthy, robust, powerful Jewish soul are there not only in this world, but forever and ever for millions and millions of years in the next world as well."
Even if it's true, I refuse to live my life only for the next world.
"Just keep trying" ;
I've tried ,and tried, and tried again. I'm tired of trying.
MODERATOR Posted - 17 October 2002 8:26
Ekant,
I would really suggest a good course in Judaism. Your questions are all answered by basic Hashkafa, and your assumptions are lacking in knowledge of what our religion is all about.
I would suggest beginning with the 3 Hashkafa books of Rabbi Miller - Awake My Glory, Sing You Righteous, and Rejoice O Youth, and then go to Rabbi Lawrence Kelleman's Permission to Receive (I usually recommend his other book, which I believe is more pertinent, but your issues are addressed in this one). Point by point:
”you wrote "we are still obliged to try as hard as we can". Why ? why should I? I don’t fear hell. It's a Christian concept.”
No, its not. While it is true that the idea of a devil-run weird subterranean pit where people are shoveling coal all day is of course not Jewish, the real "hell", meaning, the excruciating pain of a posthumous soul detached from G-d because if its sins, is very real and Jewish.
And from what it says in the Seforim about it, the pain of getting jabbed in the back by a red hot pitchfork is nothing compared to wanting so much to be close to G-d but being unable to and, to exacerbate the situation, knowing full well that you had a chance to get close to G-d but you blew it.
But the extreme sensation pain of being far from G-d is nothing compared to the pleasure of being close to Him. And that is an opportunity we have as well.
“You believe that the need for girls is just an "illusion". Wake up! It's a real need. Just as eating more than bread and water became a need for you. Yes, again, a need. Because of the society you live in. You need it psychologically, which is even stronger than the physical needs.”
If you don’t hang out with girls nothing bad will happen to you. Nothing bad happen to those who don’t. By definition, an illusion makes you think its reality. So you think you have this "need". And if its society that’s making you believe this, well, now you know why its a good idea to not to integrate that way into society.
“You compare girls to drugs. That's true, for some people. Just like a cup of wine per day is healthy, and a bottle of vodka isn't. It is normal, sane, and even healthy to go out with girls, usually at the age of 14-15, according to psychiatrists (at least the ones I saw).”
Yeah, well, that’s until you ask them for the medical or scientific evidence for that and they come up with "duh". Psychiatrists know nothing of the Guf-Neshomo conflict; to them you are just a biological organism, more complex but no more spiritual, than an amoeba. "Right and wrong" has no intrinsic meaning to these people - or to science. If your PhDs or MD's would go to school and learn what a human being really wants - what his soul wants - they would not speak to ignorantly. And their patients would be much happier.
”Now you religious people don't accept that, saying that it's only an illusion.
Maybe it was, 200 years ago, but not in the world I live in."
The world you live can create social expectations and peer pressure, but not "needs." That’s like saying if you lived in
If you cant achieve that, you are living in the wrong society. Move out of
“There is more depression, loneliness, mental illness, frustration, and dissatisfaction with life among the secular" ;where did you see that ?”
The stats all show it. That’s why I recommended Rabbi Kelleman's "permission to receive." He speaks a lot about this.
”There is no reason to be jealous of anyone in this world, since you know that Hashem gives everyone exactly what is maximally best for them." ; that's too easy. "Religion is the opium of people", does that remind you of anything ?”
There is no logic that says that an answer needs to be difficult in order to be true. "Too easy" for what? To be true? Or for you to accept? The question you should ask yourself is, "Why wont I accept easy answers if they make sense?"
Usually it is because a person does not want the answers that are true, because then he will be bound by the ramifications of their truth. In this case, to be religious. Only complicated or unclear answers are acceptable to these people, because then they can always say "the answers aren’t clear." You’re playing mind games with yourself.
“And the happiness and enjoyment of creating and possessing of a healthy, robust, powerful Jewish soul are there not only in this world, but forever and ever for millions and millions of years in the next world as well." ;even if it's true, I refuse to live my life only for the next world.”
That’s your choice. Don’t blame Torah or G-d for it. And it is, of course, the wrong choice, inconsistent with all human reason. The phrase "only" for the next world is where your mistake lies. For "only" in this context implies that the next world - which constitutes millions and millions of lifetimes ad infinitum, if not worth obtaining by spending one of those lifetimes pursuing it. That of course makes no sense and is illogical by all standards. Either you don’t believe in Olam Habah (which is an easily rectifiable problem for the open minded individual) or your vested interest in having girls is messing with your head to the point that you cant think clearly.
“I've ,and tried, and tried again. I'm tired of trying.”
That’s because physiologically you don’t see the value of your efforts. Trying to do Mitzvos is what you get rewarded for - not for succeeding. Trying by definition means you win. "Lfum Tzaara
Hatzlachah Rabbah.
ekant Posted - 20 November 2002 14:39
I would like to thank you all for your interest in my case.
I found your answers extremely inspiring, and that is why I took the time to meditate before writing this.
Firstly, I am going to respond to the moderator, whom I thank again for the time he spends to help other people, even though I strongly disagree with him on some points.
Mod, I agree with you that there is some kind of Jewish hell, but I cannot conceive that God wants us to be miserable in this life in order to gain olam haba. Because the concept that this world is made for the men to suffer is Christian, and the quote “religion is the opium of people” is about that view on religion.
To quote you “If you don’t hang out with girls nothing bad will happen to you. Nothing bad happen to those who don’t. By definition, an illusion makes you think it’s reality. So you think you have this "need". And if it’s society that’s making you believe this, well, now you know why its a good idea to not to integrate that way into society.”
After having a long and serious thought about that, I understood that you were right. Totally. But my response to you will be that, after all, our values are all determined by the society we live in.
For example, people in African tribes do not have any problem with nudity, they are not affected by it. They are not vicious, walking around naked; for them, it is the normal thing to do. Now you would feel that it is despicable, but only because you grew up in
My point is that everything is relative, and that since I did not grow up in a Jewish environment, I am affected by it, in a very very deep way. I mean that the society made me who I am. You say that society makes me think that I need girls. That’s true. But you don’t understand that I’m extremely affected by my society. For me, it has become a real need. A need, mod. And it’s too late for me “not to integrate too much into society”. Now I cannot change, because that would not only mean changing my midos, but changing WHO I AM. Just like you will never feel comfortable naked.
You advise me to change my environment. I tried it. I tried going to yeshiva. But it didn’t work. How could it have? I’ve never felt comfortable in the frum world, because of who I am. My values are different. And I am aware of that. The fact is that I will always look at a girl’s beauty more than her spiritual value (with the concept of beauty that society gave me), I will always find men like Henri James more inspiring than our Rebbeim, etc.
Realizing that made me sick. But I feel stuck. I will never change who I am.
MODERATOR Posted - 21 November 2002 11:38
Ekant,
The problem is that you want to accept the values of secular society around you and also benefit form the happiness of a Torah life. You cant do both. The idea of a Torah life includes the Torah perspective, which gives you the most natural and satisfying way of relating to the world. Part of that says NOT to accept the values of society - they are jungle-values. Its like living among the apes, taking their values, and expecting to lead a civilized life. Doesn’t work.
You’ve got to choose. You’re miserable now. Let go of the jungle, man. There’s nothing there for you. Its clear that its making you miserable.
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