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HALACHA-----platonic relationships 2

asdfg Posted - 01 September 2000 22:59

Well, after 4 days I stopped smoking. I haven’t smoked since last Wednesday. I’ve been influenced by this girl. She’s been really great. She was against but didn’t treat me like I was nothing even when I was smoking. Moderator, I know that according to you a girl can’t help me but I would have to say that helping me to stop smoking is very positive.

- 01 September 2000 23:52


I never said a girl is unable to help you. I said she is not allowed. There's a difference. I'm happy you stopped smoking but you should not have done it that way.

It's like if you find some inspiring piece of Torah on the web...on Shabbos! Just because something good happened to you doesn't mean you didn't do an aveirah doing it, and just because it's an aveirah doesn't mean it won't give you some good.

That's the Yetzer Horah's way of convincing you to keep talking to girls. "Look how much more religious you are," it says.

Don't listen. G-d is smarter than the Yetzer Horah, and He knew that this girl would help you one day. And still, He said don't be friends with them.

IDoCare Posted - 04 September 2000 6:11

I know Rav Moshe ruled even platonic relationships assur.

But obviously there are cases when it is permissible to grow through a friendship with a friend of the opposite sex, maybe you will criticize it but NCSY does this because in many cases it is the only way that works to be mekarev people (i.e. who’s guno go to an all boys thing)

So everyone has to know when they need to rely on someone of the opposite sex until they get to the level where they are strong enough and ready to say goodbye to that person, and of course thanx for the help.

This site is another example of people of often opposite genders helping each other. maybe there should be 2 sites one for boys and one for girls?

Like I was reading someone else here say, things need to be taken into perspective..people get so frum that they lose perspective.

And come on, comparing shmirat shabbat to talking to a girl?

Everyone has to be ready to keep accepting higher levels of Yiddishkeit, if you forbid someone to do one thing (talk to a girl) and then he never reaches that higher level where he will be ready to keep shabbos, kosher etc, (and also not talk to a girl)..then what have you gained?

It’s just like with a baal teshuva the yetzer hara tries to tell him to do everything at once but that is the wrong way to go about it because he will just fail.

MODERATOR Posted - 04 September 2000 7:19

Rav Moshe says that the prohibition of being friends with girls is an issur d'oraysah. A "laav".

This means it has the same stringency as eating non-kosher, for instance, or stealing, or plowing with an ox and donkey together.

Just as you would not be mekarev someone if you had to eat non-kosher to do so, so too you cannot mekarev someone by becoming friends with a member of the opposite sex.

If the interaction is an educational one, as opposed to a friendly one, such as a counselor or a teacher, that is not a problem.

As far as your question of "what have you gained?", the Torah is not the stock market where we can "spend a little" to "gain a lot". It is not us who prohibited anyone to do anything. It was G-d. G-d is the one Who said you can't be friends with girls. It is not up to us.

Of course, if someone is not religious and they are growing, so we won't force them to take on what they cannot, be it eating kosher, putting on tefillin, or being friends with girls. But to treat one prohibition different than the rest is simply "pick and choose" Judaism.

IDoCare Posted - 04 September 2000 17:20

So there are 2 issues one is platonic relationship

and the other is a more of an educational friendship or counselor type thing.

To address the first, first of all Rav Moshe says it is dioraysa, ok besides that that may not be the only opinion and don’t know, again Like I said with a baal teshuva so if you have 2 people on their way to become a baal teshuva one is a boy and one is a girl and they have this platonic relationship and they are encouraging each other to keep shabbos and kosher etc, should you be telling them they should stop being friends at that point?

So were not talking about pick and choose Judaism here. When they come to a higher madrega, then you can tell them but I have a feeling a lot of rabbis would tell many teens not yet on this level to stop talking to girls/boys...and then chas v’sholom all is lost

And second in cases like the girl asked about she tells someone stuff on the internet, so that is not even a platonic relationship so it’s not assur. It's more like a counselor or just an educational friendship or maybe not even a friendship, but guidance, so to say that if a boy asks a girl a question online that its assur to answer I don’t think that’s in spirit of Rav Moshe was saying. Unless it’s a case where it will turn into a relationship.

And on a separate note, in terms of the stock market its very funny but you were the one who made Judaism seem to be like a stock market when you had that whole thing about why we should go to kollel all day and exclude everything else (to a degree) because that way we are picking up gold..and it’s all about picking up more gold - according to you. So I'm a bit unclear on that.

MODERATOR Posted - 04 September 2000 20:17

No, there are not two types of platonic relationships. When I say "counseling" relationship I do not mean when one friend happens to guide another. I mean that your relationship is not one for the purpose of friendship at all but rather for the purpose of teaching. Like a teacher in a classroom for instance. Or a rabbi.

People in the midst of becoming frum are entitled too much slack and patience in their journey. And if they must eat cheeseburgers thus far, we will not push them. And if they must have friends of the opposite sex thus far, we will not push them either.

But we would not serve cheeseburgers at our Kiruv classes to attract non-religious Jews to come, even if some will only come if we serve cheeseburgers. There is a difference between turning your back when someone is not holding there yet, as opposed to proactively providing them with the prohibited item.

So too we may not provide different-sex friendships in an effort to make people religious.

For a lengthy treatment of this, see Akeidas Yitzchok (Vayeirah).

Look at it this way: Never mind friends. How about actual touching? If someone had a full fledged girlfriend, messing around and everything, that was making him religious, would you tell him to keep the girlfriend, and keep messing around, with your blessings, until he is religious?

Another thing: Under no circumstances may we tell someone that it is permitted to do a sin. We may not lie about a Halachah even to save our life (Yam Shel Shlomo, Bava Kama).

As far as online, as I said, if you are online with this guy because he is a guy and you are a girl, then it is prohibited. If you are doing it not because of that but because, for instance, someone asked you a question, and they are interested in the answer, not in you, that is permitted.

At the time the interest shifts from the answer to the "answerer", it will be prohibited.

1WhoCares Posted - 07 September 2000 14:51

Oy, what to do?! I have a very attractive friend (a girl) who is very proud that she has "helped" so many guys get off of drugs. I can't figure out how and why. The guys are only doing it cuz she's a girl.. but is it because they just needed someone who cared enough to help and a girl was the only one who persisted or were they hoping to get **** in the process?

I try my best to think of guys as humans with feelings... but Orlofsky (and you, Moderator) try to make guys out to be animals who feel nothing but sexual urges. They must not be... because some guys actually make good friends, brothers and fathers etc... so what's the deal???

MODERATOR Posted - 07 September 2000 19:09


Please see the beginning posts on this topic, where this is explained. The prohibition of being friends with girls has nothing to do with whether the guy wants only wants "something" from the girl. Hormonal activity is often present even when the guy is not looking for "one thing".

was2frum Posted - 24 November 2003 16:31

I don’t know if this is the place for it, but the conversation about girls started here, so I will comment here. 1whocares pointed this out but you did not answer, if platonic relationships are a laav, then why does NCSY allow as part of their kiruv setup, I saw a shabbaton in action recently, and the boy girl situation was "goin' on" even by the already frum. I mean they sit them together and all. if it is so assur, how do they justify it???

MODERATOR Posted - 24 November 2003 16:32

Who says they can justify it?

Ask them. Check it out.

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