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TALMUD TORAH-----kollel 10

ponder2 Posted - 25 July 2001 20:12

For what reasons should a girl get married for? I mean according to the Torah only men have the obligation of "pru u'vru".

MODERATOR Posted - 25 July 2001 20:17

First, even though women are not obligated in Pru Urevu they may be obligated to have children due to the Torah command of "sheves", though it is not one of the 613.

But never mind that. The Gemora says that women merit the next world - for which you need the merit of Torah learning and women are not obligated to learn Torah - because they assist their husbands and children in their Torah learning, thereby meriting the zechus of Talmud Torah themselves.

Besides which the merit of raising a Jewish family and bringing Yiddishe nachas to Hashem through a Yiddishe home and Yiddishe children are things that, even without a commandment of Pru U'revu, are very compelling religious reasons to get married.

Then of course, are her own personal needs for someone to assist her in her own struggle in this world, and the way Hashem created the tevah, a man is best suited for that role.

shnuks Posted - 06 August 2001 18:07

Yeh, we gotta help the men out and get stuck w/ all the hard work!!! while they go learn and we have babies???

MODERATOR Posted - 06 August 2001 18:09

Women who unfortunately were not granted the blessing of children would disagree with your complaint.

The grass is always greener on the other side. There are men who complain of having to wake up early and go to Minyan, stay in Yeshiva 2 or three sedorim a day, while their wives are at home enjoying the kids...

ponder2 Posted - 28 August 2001 2:50


What is the Torah command of "sheves"???

MODERATOR Posted - 28 August 2001 3:04

Yeshaya 45:18 "G-d created the world to be inhabited". This is not a Mitzvah D'oraisah, but it may be an obligation even on women to make sure the world is inhabited.

Rationality Posted - 03 January 2002 19:08

Moderator: why don't you just tell shnuks the real, much better answer to her question? That is, men are supposed to work, not sit in yeshiva all day, so they can make the money they need? That is much more simple and straight forward.

MODERATOR Posted - 03 January 2002 20:01

Because it is a great privilege, and a higher level, to learn all day rather than work, as the Rambam states. And it is therefore an opportunity for a woman, who does not learn Torah on her own, to merit a share of that great reward as well if she supports such a man.

Chami Adler Posted - 17 January 2002 15:34



MODERATOR Posted - 17 January 2002 16:45

You are misinformed. Those who are not really learning are a small minority. Un-noticeable and insignificant when compared to those that are for real. It is a plain blood libel against Kollel guys to say "how many do you know" that are for real.

It is true that Kollel has become the "in" thing, but so has religion. Does that mean you shouldn’t be religious?

They’re doing good things, the Kollel people. They deserve praise, not suspicious accusations.

Chami Adler Posted - 17 January 2002 23:26

Ok you might be right that there is a great amount of the population that is doing it right but why do those people tend to think of themselves as the better ones?

What is wrong with making an honest to goodness living without cheating the government? Where I went to school kollel was always pushed and of course by teachers who were living a kollel life. They kept telling us that you have to sacrifice for torah and you have to have mesiras nefesh. what kind of mesiras nefesh and sacrifice were they having living in a most up to date house hold?

Their children were the first to go out of town to sem while the working families were home? Where was their sacrifice for torah? when my father learned an hours a night after a full day of work, that is what I call sacrifice not sitting all day living in a house that lacks nothing and then telling girls whose parents work that they have to sacrifice for torah

And what’s the business of telling girls that they have to sacrifice for torah.What are we telling them that living a torah life is a sacrifice? No they should be taught that living a torah life is a beautiful thing which it truly is and skip the part about sacrifice, yes of course we all end up having to sacrifice but you know what it happened to those in kollel and those who are not!

Overall what’s this new propaganda to promote kollel please explain!!!

MODERATOR Posted - 18 January 2002 0:10

Nothings wrong with making a living, just learning all day is superior. The Rambam says so. And so does logic. Learning is the biggest Mitzvah there is. The more of it you do, the better. its apple pie simple.

Some kollel guys need to be moser nefesh to learn, and some do not. Same with their wives. Its not always easy, and not always hard. But what’s the point? The point is that learning is the best thing in the world - the biggest Mitzvah, period. If its easy to do, then Boruch Hashem. If its hard and you do it, you get more credit.

ptgard2281 Posted - 18 January 2002 16:49

Yeah, but if people are giving money to men to learn, I feel like it's also stealing tzedakah in a way from people who need it.

When people are capable of making their own parnasa, they shouldn't be taking handouts from others just so that they can learn -- if there was no such idea for people to give money for such a cause, then the money would probably be given to families who can't afford medical expenses, have been through terrible tragedies, etc.

Of course it's a zechut to be able to learn a lot, but I think it's taken out of hand when men get paid to learn . . . I don't think it's a mitzvah to get paid to learn -- it should be done without getting paid, otherwise it makes it seem like it's being done for the money, not for the fact that people desire to learn. I don't see what the big deal is to have a job and make the time to learn too -- after all, it's quality, not quantity that counts, no?

MODERATOR Posted - 21 January 2002 20:51

Quality and quantity count. Learning half-baked is still better than twiddling your thumbs, for instance.

Learning is not stealing money from poor people any more than those doing scientific research to cure cancer taking funds for research are "stealing" money from poor people. People learning provide the world - and especially the supporters - with great returns for their money.

In fact, the Kollel guy "gives" the donor much more than the donor gives the Kollel guy, namely, the zechus of Torah. And that zechus you cannot get even if you give all your money to poor people. Supporting Torah learning is a whole different merit.

There was once a rich guy who used to give a lot of Tzedakah to poor people but never supported Torah. Rav Aharon Kotler ZTL once paid him a visit to tell him that when he gets to the next world, he will be very disappointed at what he gets, since he never gave money to support Torah.

The guy proceeded to write a check payable to Rav Aharon's Yeshiva.

Rav Aharon refused to take the check. "I will never, ever take a penny from you for my Yeshiva," Rav Aharon said. "Because if I do, you may think that I told you this because I was hoping you would give me a donation. The truth is, I told you this for your sake. You can give to any Yeshiva in the world, but you cannot give to mine."

The guy became a big supporter of Torah. He passed away 2 months later. Boruch Hashem Rav Aharon got to him in time.

whyme? Posted - 28 January 2002 16:56

yg I don’t know where you are up to in life but what you say makes absolute sense. but how does one learn to prioritize, lets be realistic. every person comes from a different type of a background. in every house hold different things are valued.

Some people spend more on certain things and some on others, so lets say a girl marries into a family which will probably not value the same things as they do. the couple go into a kollel life but the wife will expect to still have certain things while the husband may not understand her need in a certain area. don’t we all have different needs(wants) depending on where we come from? how does one learn how to prioritize? Really? Do we not have to be somewhat realistic and understand that different people come from different places? Do you understand what I’m saying? If not I have a real good example.

I know of a couple that got married . the girl’s side was the type where extra money was spent in buying something substantial. the boy’s family on the other hand although they were a kollel family spent their extra money on family vacations. neither of those are wrong but to each the importance will be different. so how do kollel couples who are trying to do the right thing learn ho to reconcile realistic and understandable differences. Liberally speaking!!

MODERATOR Posted - 28 January 2002 18:40

The same way married couples learn to reconcile all the other differences between them. With understanding and compromise. Here, thee is also an element of Torah hashkofa involved, and so they may want to consult a Talmid Chacham on the matter as well.

LovLe7 Posted - 30 January 2002 15:00

Even if it says in the torah that the mitzvah is for men, they can't marry themselves! So there is the commandment for the women just as well as the men!

MODERATOR Posted - 30 January 2002 15:10

They are necessary for the fulfillment of the commandment obviously but not obligated in it. In other words, if a woman doesn’t want to get married, she doesn’t violate it, but a man who doesn’t want to get married would.

tess Posted - 31 January 2002 17:13

Moderator, its so nice to hear someone say that there is "nothing wrong with making a living."

We all need to remember this and look at the bigger picture when searching for our basheret: Look for a ben torah, a baal midos,a baal chesed, someone that will make an amazing father and husband.

IF he embodies all these torah values, does it make a real difference whether he wants to learn for three years or five years; or go into chinuch; or even (gasp!!) work after learning for a few years??

I cant see myself in a long term kollel situation, but I'm not set in my ways- when the right guy comes along, Emertz Hashem we will both work together and compromise. If this means I have to work a little, okay, if not I'm even happier- but the point is ppl should look for their basheret as someone who they look at as a person and love.

Their actions, their occupations, these are all secondary. They do not capture the essence of the person.

MODERATOR Posted - 31 January 2002 17:52

Part of being "bashert" means this person is able to help you in your job in this world better than anyone else. Both you and he are in this world to gather merits for the next world. You will be looking for someone through whom you can gather the most merits.

There is nothing wrong with someone who works - it is perfectly permissible to go out into the marketplace and make a living. If someone does that, he is not sinning, he is not bad, and he will not be punished for it.

However, Talmud Torah K'neged Kulam. Learning Torah is the greatest Mitzvah of all. So much greater, say Chazal, that one word of Torah learning earns you more holiness than an entire lifetime of doing all other Mitzvos put together.

A woman merits Olam Habah through her helping her husband (and children) learn, says the Gemora. Every moment of learning earns him, and you, more holiness. In the course of a lifetime, this amounts to a mind boggling difference in merits accumulated.

It's that simple.

There is definitely no claim against those who go to work. But there is special credit due for those who want to learn all day. No question about it. Our seforim and poskim are replete with descriptions of the holiness and merit accrued by those who learn all day. Learning one year more, one hour more, one day more, or one moment more, makes a tremendous difference in a Neshomah.

Hashem put us in contemporary America, which is the may be the most affluent society Jews have ever lived throughout history. Boruch Hashem we can make a living today. But that also means we have the ability to support Kollelim and learn in Kollel more than Jews ever did throughout history. You are surely allowed to give up that opportunity, but the question is do you want to?

Another thing. Even though it is easier today to be frum in the workplace than it ever was in America, still, working people will tell you that the business world does not have the same atmosphere as does a Bais Medrash. The language used by even many, many religious businessmen is grubbier than they were accustomed to beforehand. Sometimes nivul peh words are commonplace; sometimes even innocent simple business expressions are not the way Bnei Torah should express themselves.

And the male-female interaction is also usually much different than Bnei Torah would conduct themselves if they would not be working.

I heard once from a working person in Miami Beach, who happens to be a wonderfully frum Ben Torah, that he heard from the Rosh Yeshiva there about how working people confide in him regarding the Nisyonos that they encounter with women in the workplace. The Rosh Yeshiva expressed to this man wonder about the strength that it takes for a human to remain unscathed from these Nisyonos that are encountered by average frum working people.

None of this means that working is prohibited or evil or bad. What it does mean is that there is a difference between someone who lives all his life in the Bais HaMedrash (or Shiur room) versus someone who lives 8 or more hours a day all his life in the workplace. Again, not that there is anything wrong at all with working - that’s the curse of Adam HaRishon - but there is much to be gained above and beyond that, by learning all day.

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