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LUBAVITCH-----a plea to the moderator

ChaimB Posted - 24 January 2002 19:18


First of all, let me introduce myself to you. I enjoy your site immensely, but I have one issue to discuss with you.

I am a grand son of the Tzanzer Rav from my father’s side and a grandson of Reb Dovid Lelever from my mother’s side. I grew up in a very nice Yeshivish family and currently reside in Flatbush, NY

Being that I am an ainekel of the “heiliger” Tzanzer Rav I often read stories about him and his history.

There is one story in particular that sticks in my mind at all times (because it involves the Tzanzer Rav and Reb Dovid Lelever) the story goes as follows:

The Tzanzer Rav sent a letter to two of Reb Dovid Lelever’s grandchildren. He started by writing: “To the grandchildren of Reb Dovid Lelever “Shlita””…………

The 2 grandchildren immediately returned a letter stating that their grandfather had passed away 20 years ago and even more so that one of them was named after him!

The Tzanzer Rav replied to them “Dovid Melech Yisroel Chai V’kayam”!!!

I am no friend of Chabad (I have nothing against them though) but how can you come to the conclusion that a Tzadik cannot be considered alive after his physical passing?!

Are you a Gadol that can decide these things?!

I personally think that it is beautiful that a group of people feel so strong for their leader that they consider him alive (in spirit.) After all our Chazal tell us “MA ZARU B’CHAIM AF HU B’CHAIM.” What do you have against this???

And besides for that, who if not Chabad believes that moshiach is coming any second?

Don’t we recite in Shmoneh Esrei 3 times a day “L’SHUASCHA K’VINU KOL HAYOM”???? What does that mean??? That we are scared that moshiach should come because it won’t be payday for some of us??? (Like one of your writers wrote.)

We could all learn from them how to respect a Gadol.

Please reply,

MODERATOR Posted - 24 January 2002 21:36

That story with the Divrei Chaim never happened. It’s probably a fabrication made up by people who would like to call the dead Rebbe alive. (Btw, I also happen to be a Sanzer einekel.)

Dovid Melech Yisroel Chai V'Kayam means living in Gan Eden, not on this world (see the Meforshim). The Gemora, in fact, derives the Halachah that dead people are exempt from Mitzvos from Dovid Hamelech being exempt after he died.

Lubavitch does not refer to any other Tzadikim except the Lubavitcher Rebbe as shlita. Whatever they mean by this "yechi" nonsense, it puts the Lubavitcher Rebbe in a totally different category than every Tzadik in history. They have never referred to Tzadikim in general as shlita. This began after the death of the past Rebbe.

So any chazals, and Chasidic stories, any references to such things as Tzadikim being "alive" in some sense after they die does not serve to explain what is currently happening in Chabad.

Their own explanation is that the Rebbe is moshiach and Moshiach is alive.

And you don’t need "such a Godol" to decipher this, since you already have Chazal and the sages of the generations who decided this, not that it needs much greatness to fathom.

positive Posted - 31 May 2004 9:04

Let it be known far and wide that an ever increasing proportion of those in Chabad are distancing themselves from the Yechi concept.

MODERATOR Posted - 31 May 2004 10:17

I hope so. If so, then the screams of the Torah world against Chabad are having an effect.

But the truth is, it is hard to know, since the Rebbe told his Chasidim not to reveal to the public anything about Chabad that would be counterproductive to the cause even if it is true, and that they must present thing to the public "b'ofen hamiskabel" - in a way that will be accepted.

Therefore, it is the Chabad position not to disclose things that they sincerely believe, if we will not accept it. Thus, there are Chabad rabbis who are saying that of course the Rebbe is Moshiach etc - but don’t go around announcing it.

ben reb mordechai Posted - 11 June 2004 10:57

I am a new member to this forum and have just read some of the material on the "Chabad" issue. I am a chabadnik and a shliach of the Rebbe in a far out country.

I have read some of the past material that the moderator has written (I must admit that besides for the Chabad issue, I am quite impressed by some of his responses and approach. It is also quite evident that he is a Talmid chochom) which is why I am sending this note.

I have read what you have to say about the Rebbe and Lubavitch (without emotional involvement). Many of your issues are valid questions - and that is what they are VALID QUESTIONS.

Unfortunately you have taken the approach (from your many posts it is obvious that you have) to come out with open war against the Rebbe. In my opinion that is very unfortunate.

Have you ever taken your questions to a (Lubavitcher) Talmid chochom and yrei shomaim?

Have you ever discussed objectively and openly with an erleche knowledgeable Lubavitcher chosid face to face the issues?

Have you ever laid out all your concerns openly and have normal dialogue? Or have you read the sichos and bashed them?

If I learn a r'akiva eiger and think I understand it, do I have the intellectual right to point to the text and scream it is incorrect without consulting in a respected authority and expert?

Some of the issues which you have spoken about atzmus umehus in a guf, shina bsucah, seudas shlishis, moshiach.... are very valid.

I also have questioned various things about Lubavitch and it's beliefs. So what I did was speak to someone who has more knowledge then myself about these issues AND argued with him about some of the issues spoke it through with other Rabbonim, mashpi'im, chaverim....

I urge you from the depth of my heart to speak the issues over with some REAL authorities in Lubavitch (Talmidei Chachamim, Roshei yeshiva) I will be more then happy to recommend and even set up appointments. (and by the way, notes from anonymous to anonymous as on this forum don't count)

You may ask why should I? I have the endorsement of some gedoilay torah to bash Chabad? (besides the fact that it has been proven over and over that even Gedolim can be wrong in their opinions - i.e. rabi akiva about bar kochba, the vilner Gaon about the besht)

Two reasons why you should

1. the Lubavitcher Rebbe more then any other Godol (arguably) in history has brought more people to torah and mitzvos. And make no mistake, the garbage you hear that he just brought them to believe he is moshiach and to be influenced by Lubavitch dogma is pure rubbish!

Like it or not he has brought more Yidden close to the rebono shel olam then you can ever imagine!! Hundreds of thousands in every corner of the world - maybe even more!!!! To serve the aibishter!!

(please don't believe that lubavitchers serve the Rebbe and not the aibishter, it is pure crap!! as I said I am a chosid of the Rebbe and chas v’sholom that never entered my mind or my subconscious in my relationship with my Rebbe - this is not a minority opinion either! The Rebbe gives us the inspiration and guidance in developing to our maximum ability our love to hashem, torah and mitzvos)

2. Maybe just maybe if we can make peace (obviously without compromising torah) on this issue may I dare to suggest it might bring the Geulah closer? truly the unimaginable. Maybe the aibishter would have a lot of nachas. Sincerely

MODERATOR Posted - 11 June 2004 12:38

Yes, I have brought the issues to knowledgeable Lubavitch rabbis. They have not been able to give any answers, though they have tried hard. The type of answers they ultimately must rely on are arguments such as the ones you put forth; The Lubavitcher Rebbe was Mekarev a lot of people so you can’t criticize him.

You don’t understand – nobody needs a “permit” to say the truth here – it is a mitzvah. And being Mekarev people doesn’t give someone an excuse to do and say all those things that the Lubavitcher Rebbe did that were against the Torah.

When I was growing up in Montreal, I knew a rabbi, whose name I don’t want to mention, who was not Lubavitch, but he had strong leanings toward the Lubavitcher Rebbe. He was actually quite close with him. This rabbi knew shas almost by heart and I spoke to him many times about the Lubavitcher Rebbe. He had absolutely no way to defend these things.

I wondered why he admired the Lubavitcher Rebbe so much, and it became obvious to me that the reason was, this Talmid Chacham, although he had a marvelous memory and knew an amazing amount, he did not have anything greater than an average understanding of what he knew. In our vernacular, you would say he wasn’t a Lamdan at all, even though he had a great memory.

Nowhere in the world would he have been accepted as a great Gadol because of this, except in Lubavitch. Indeed, the Lubavitcher Rebbe himself had the qualities of knowing a lot but lacking exceptional understanding.

This was a trademark of Lubavitch – attracting those rabbis with exceptional memories without proportionate understanding skills.

In any case, this rabbi told me, when I asked about the Lubavitcher Rebbe’s absurd reasoning for not sleeping in a sukkah, he replied – as I found out the Lubavitcher Rebbe himself replied to this complaint – that Belz also does not sit in the sukkah. In fact, I have seen on the Lubavitch Luach, that “some Chasidic groups such as Lubavitch and Belz” do not sleep in the sukkah on sukkos.

So I asked the Belzer Rebbe, who I am close with. He said it is not so. Totally false. Belz has no such Minhag, and the Chasidim that do not sleep in the sukkah either use one of the reasons in shulchan aruch that exempts people like everyone else does, or else they are just mistaken because in Belz in Europe it was very cold and because of that people usually did not sleep in the sukkah.

The analogy of Rabbi Akiva Eiger is faulty because the Lubavitcher Rebbe has not established himself as a person like R. Akiva Eiger, whose life and learning are exemplary – and that was recognized universally, such that if you had a question about something he said or did it would be an anomaly. With the Lubavitcher Rebbe, the problems are nothing exceptional – they are patterns all throughout his career. Plus, his greatness was nothing close to what would be needed to put him in the category where an observer would say, “I attribute my complaint to my own lack of understanding.”

bigmouth Posted - 11 June 2004 14:53

Not to question the belzer rebbe but since your close to him, tell him in nitei gavriel they lie about belz since in nitei gavriel it say that they GO AWAY FROM HALACHA in this matter! (if your interested in the source I can send it to you, I think its in hilchos in Rosh hashna by the dipping of the apple in a footnote)

Could you list what rabbis you spoke to ? How about Rabbi E. Shochat? R. Wagner?

MODERATOR Posted - 11 June 2004 14:54

The Nitei Gavriel is a contemporary Rav who was a Menahel in a chasidishe Yeshiva, and subsequently had to leave due to a conflict with the Hanhalah over his leanings toward Lubavitch. In the later volumes he quotes the Lubavitcher Rebbe extensively. It is no surprise that he would believe the Lubavitcher Rebbe about this, but as I mentioned, it is not true.

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