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CHIZUK-----for lack of guilt feelings

Messed Up Big Time Posted - 11 December 2000 15:52

Well here goes nothing... once upon a time ago I was a girl that attended a Lubavitch school and did basically everything I was supposed to do. Then I grew up. Guys started catching my eyes, and I started talking to them online, then I started hanging out with them, which turned me to smoking and getting into some intimate situations. My name got out because I was just so ******** stupid.

I started doing horribly in my school and got sick and tired of the restrictions, so I convinced my parents to send me out of town to a non-Lubavitch school. I enjoyed the fact that there was more freedom, but it wasn't enough. My father decided I must go to a Lubavitch school and this year sent me to a really strict fanatic one. I got sick and tired of that one really fast.

Well a few weeks ago I left (against the will of my father) and have come to live with my non-religious mother. I now attend public school. My father called me up this past week and informed me that he is disowning me ( as if he ever OWNED me in the 1st place!) and will no longer be responsible for me (i.e. $$-- which he never gave anyway) and he never wants to talk to me again.

Truth be told, that doesn't hurt me much because I never really was close with him anyway, in fact I hardly had any connection w/ him except for when he told me what I couldn't do! He never said he loves me. Nothing! No affection whatsoever.

Currently, I am not really religious. I don’t keep shabbos. I wear pants, short sleeves, or sleeveless. I am in no way shomer Negiyah. I keep kosher mostly, like I’m not so strict about hechsharim, but I won't eat like maamish treif like chazer or something. I used to eat even treif meat, but I stopped that in the summer. Because with that I feel guilty. But about everything else, I have no guilt whatsoever. Should I?

- 12 December 2000 19:07

Messed up,

Don’t be confused by the lack of guilt feelings for lots of things that you do. Our feelings do not define reality. You can be do something innocent and yet feel guilty, as well as be guilty and feel innocent. The Yetzer Horah doesn’t want you to be frum, so it does not allow you to feel guilty for certain things that you do. It wants you to think well, I don’t feel guilty doing this, that means it’s OK. And so you only refrain from those things that you feel guilty doing.

The lack of guilt feelings could be for many reasons, including a possible desire you may have to want to blame your father for your predicament. “Look what he made me do” part of you deep down may be declaring triumphantly when you eat at Domino’s Pizza.

Your father’s behavior is dead wrong, both from a Torah standpoint and a normal human one. But please, please don’t let it kill you. You call yourself “Messed Up Big Time” which means that you KNOW what you’re doing is messed up, yet you don’t FEEL guilty about most of the things you do. It’s a question of what you KNOW versus what you FEEL.

The Seforim write that in such a case, knowledge is the way to go. Since feelings are caused by so many things, not all of which are reasonable, they often lie. If you’re driving a car at 60 MPH and hit a patch of ice, your feelings tell you to slam on the breaks. If you do, you’re dead.

If you wake up in the middle of the night and c”v there’s a fire, your feelings tell you to run out the door, which is the worst thing you can do.

If you have a mosquito bite, your feelings tell you to scratch it.

Your feelings are telling you one thing here, but your mind tells you something else. Do what you know is right. Follow your spiritual knowledge, not your feelings of innocence.

Not everyone can feel guilty about everything that is bad. It’s a high madreigah to feel like that. The fact that you don’t feel guilty doe not mean anything. It’s still wrong. You can still refrain. Please, please do it.

You already went through so much Gehinnom on this earth, who knows how much of your sins were mischaper (atoned) because of your suffering, and who in the world can judge your actions without going through what you did? But please don’t let the mess that you are in conquer you. You must conquer it!

Hashem loves you. Klall Yisroel loves you. And one day, you are going to find a man who loves you more than you can imagine. Life will be different in the near future. You just have to hang in there, tell Hashem that you want to be frum, put in all your efforts to do it, and Hashem will help you.

Others will, too. If you tell me where you live I may be able to hook you up with some good friends, perhaps some Kiruv people who will understand what you’re going through and be helpful. If that’s what you want, just ask.

But please, no matter what, don’t give up. You can win this battle.

Messed Up Big Time Posted - 14 December 2000 1:22

I don’t think I want to be frum at this time though. I’m just not interested. Like I like my religious friends and the social part of being religious, but aside form that I don’t give a flying ****. Ya know what I mean?

And even more so, my religious friends are all in the "BIG" cities: ny, toronto, chicago, pittsburgh, etc. I’m in a little hick-town that basically has 2 frum shuls in the metro-area, one is modern ortho ( 15 min. from me)and honestly they will admit they have a minyan maybe 1x a month if they r lucky and the chabad minyan (45 min from me) which only has shul on every other shabbat, and never has a minyan unless they import bochurim for the yomim you see what I am saying?

Even if I was interested in religion, which at this pint I’m not, there is no chance for it. get it?

MODERATOR Posted - 14 December 2000 2:11

Messed up,

If you want to be frum, you can be. Even without a shul. There will be help, especially from Hashem. But I'm so confused. You see, you write that real Treif you won't eat etc., and you call yourself "Messed Up", and it bothers you that you don't feel guilty. Yet you say you don't care. It looks like you care a little, no?

Listen, Messed, nobody here knows who you are at all. You're talking completely anonymously, so you can say whatever's in your heart. You don't care about being frum. But it looks like it bothers you that you don't care. I know that your father's actions make it hard for you to be frum now. It may even seem like if you DO become frum, that his stupid and abusive behavior worked! That he was right! And deep down, you know he's wrong for what he did, and you won't want his wrongness to control you.

Please realize that by being frum now your father doesn't win, he LOSES. If he sees that when you were under his auspices and his home you weren't frum (enough) and when you left to live with your non-religious mother you decided on your OWN to be frum, it means that his home was a contributor to your not being frum (I'll bet it really was!).

Please realize that you are frum for Hashem, not for your father. You for sure want to eventually rid yourself of the anger and resentment that your father generated within you, and the way to do that is to make sure he does not control your life at all. Your instincts tell you this means you must NOT be frum, but instincts in crisis situations lie (we said this many times on these boards -- it's like you're in a car going 60 MPH and hit an ice patch; all your instincts tell you to slam on the brakes, but if you do you're dead).

Every emotion within you tells you not to care about "what your father wanted", meaning, frumkeit, and live your own life. But you see, by living your life specifically different from what your father wanted, you are allowing him to influence your whole life, even though it is not in the direction he would have preferred. Any contribution that his desire makes to your lifestyle choices - be it to be frum or not - means he is controlling your life. You want to get rid of his baggage.

The way to do that is run your own life the way you really know deep down it should be run, as if his agenda never existed.

You don't have to be Messed Up forever. I know many girls in situations like yours whose lives did turn around. But you gotta drop your father from your life. You don't have to forgive him now, but you have to look at his problems as HIS problems, not make them yours too.

Would your mother consider sending you away to school? How bout going to Israel to school? There are some good schools now in Israel for girls your age and your type of situation. Is there a specific obstacle to your going out of town? Maybe money? Something else? It's clear that your Yiddishe Neshomah is still shining inside you, regardless of whether your brain says you don't care about being frum now. Your brain isn't all there is to you, you know. Your soul counts, too. Please don't give up. Let's try to deal.

Messed Up Big Time Posted - 08 January 2001 17:23

Well over Chanukah, I went to crown heights/ny... I spent some time with friends that I haven't seen in a while. while I was there I totally kept shabbos and tzniyus and it felt so so good.

On Monday night, I made a really bad mistake. I was hanging w/ boyfriend's brother (my bf was outta town in yeshiva) and we ended up ******ing. I totally never thought I could do that.. it’s horrible and immoral. almost like something you see on the jerry springer show, You know?

Anyways, he doesn’t care a thing about me that’s been quite obvious in his actions toward me since then. I told some close friends and somehow it got back to his mother.. well being that HE is 19 and I’m only 15 (my b-day is soon and I’ll b 16)... he is scared that he could lose his job and b arrested for statutory rape... he threatened to come find me and beat the **** out of me... whatever. Not that I’m scared, bc we are unlisted and he doesn’t know my address and neither does anyone bc we got a p.o. box! Whatever...

Since then I’ve decided though to change my ways. in fact I’ve decided to look at frumkeit in a different way. I just started wearing skirts only and keeping shabbos. This is gonna b my 1st shabbos back at home. its gonna be interesting--that’s all I can say. And it sure as hell is gonna b hard. but I think and believe that I have the strength and Hashem doesn’t give ppl situations that they cannot handle. right?

Anyways, I gtg now, but btw my b-day is on Wednesday-- tes vov teves!!! whatever.. I’ll be 16. gtg

love, messed

ps. the guy told me a few days ago that he got results back that says he's hiv+... what should I do? bc I just got tested negative a few wks ago. and I can’t tell my mom I need to be tested again!!

rachel2001 Posted - 09 January 2001 15:52

Hey messed up, I think you know me. from your old class, remember?

I’m so glad you’ve decided to change bcuz there’s so much more to life than that.

You’ve really got to be more careful though, bcuz most guys out there are one track minded, you know. Whatever, I haven’t seen you in a while and I just hope it all works out for you.

good luck, luv rachel

- 09 January 2001 16:13


It is great that you are going to change your life. That makes you so wonderful. Chizki V'amtzi!

Btw, HIV tests don’t' catch the virus until 3-6 months after exposure, so taking a test now won't really tell you anything about what happened with this guy. You have to wait a while.

And don't worry about him coming after you. It’s not going to happen. The jerk is scared out of his pants that you're going to press charges against him (and frankly, if he is HIV+ and sleeping around with girls anyway pressing charges is a good idea), and he's just threatening you to get you scared. Don't be. He won't dare touch you unless he's totally psycho.

And he may well be lying about the HIV anyway, to make himself into a Rachmonus case so that you have pity on him and not put him in jail for 20 years ("Oh, MessedUp, I'm gonna die soon anyway, isn't that enough punishment?"). So sleep tight. Get a new test in a few months. You may be able to get it done without your parents knowing. Contact your local city social service agencies, or call a STD hotline in your area. If you don't know of any, tell me where you are located and we'll deal.

And Rachel is right. Watch out for the guys.

Messed Up Big Time Posted - 10 January 2001 3:51

Thanks moderator. thanks rachel (btw, email me ok?) ? ttyl



MODERATOR Posted - 10 January 2001 20:48

Messed aka Happy and Content,

I have an offer for you.

I know a wonderful family - frum, Lubavitch, and personal friends of mine - in New York that would love to give you free room and board if you think it will help you grow. No strings attached. Just a way to possibly get out of the difficult environment you're in and have a new start. If you're interested or want to know more, please let me know.

Messed Up Big Time Posted - 11 January 2001 19:42


Thanks for the offer, but I don’t think it’s what I need right now. actually, as of last night, I have come to terms w/ my father. also, there is a very large possibility that I might be able to go to a baal teshuva seminary in Israel next yr! b"h! I really hope it all works out. I also might be moving in with my dad. I’m not sure what I’ll do for school though... (for the rest of this yr) either maybe I’ll transfer to the PHS there, or maybe I can get back into my old school there (the one I went all my life till last yr.. I dunno if it’s a possibility or not. but my dad said he'll work on it. bezras hashem everything’s gonna all work out for the best. ttyl

~Messed Up Big Time~

MODERATOR Posted - 11 January 2001 21:23

OK. May you be successful in your spiritual climb. (You obviously have the strength to do it!). If you need me, just holler.

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