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TEFILAH-----women and nusach

Star Posted - 06 December 2000 16:39

Do girls have a chiuv to daven?

If a girl doesn't feel like davening and she says well, I don't HAVE to because I’m not commanded, what could she do to make herself feel motivated?

MODERATOR Posted - 06 December 2000 16:47

There is a disagreement about this in the poskim.

There are those who hold that a woman is only obligated to daven one prayer a day, and it does not have to be shmoneh esrai.

She should say something that has the elements of Tefilah - praise (shevach), request (bakashah), and hodaah (thanks) - such as Birchas HaShachar with the Yehi ratzon after it, or Birchas haTorah with V'Ha'arev nah, or something similar.

B'dieved, they can fulfill their obligation to daven with Birkas Hamazon according to these shitos.

Others hold that women are obligated to say the Shemoneh Esrei of Shachris and Minchah (not Maariv).

She is allowed (but not obligated according to some poskim) to say Pesukei D'Zimarah.

However, Sefardic women should NOT say Boruch She'amar or Yishtabach. The reason for this is that Sefardic women do NOT make Brachos that they are not obligated to make, whereas Ashkenazi women do. Since Boruch Sheamar and yishtabach are brachos, this disagreement would apply.

It is also good for women to say the first posuk of Shema.

If a woman who is accustomed to davening finds that she cannot, then she should at least say one short tefilah in the morning as per the other shitos.

There is a small minority of poskim who hold a woman has to daven Maariv Shmoneh Esrei as well.

curiousg Posted - 15 December 2000 12:48

In sephardic beit yaakov schools, the girls daven both baruch sheamar and yishtabach.

MODERATOR Posted - 15 December 2000 13:04

The Chacham Ovadiah Yosef (Yechaveh Daas III:3) says they shouldn't (i.e. they should skip Hashem's name).

There is a minority poskim to rely on in those places where the custom already exists to say them, but that's only to justify an already existing legitimate custom ex post facto; objective Halachic practice would demand they don't say it.

Sometimes the Sefardic schools are run by Ashkenaz rabbis or principals who don't realize this.

(I remember once an Ashkenaz menaheles of a Kiruv high school demanding from a Sefardic student on a school Sukkos trip that she make a brachah on the Lulav.)

Aperson Posted - 18 December 2000 18:09

Now I don't know if this is normal or just a personal problem of mine, but recently I was told that I should daven 3X's a day (I'm a girl) and ever since I started to do that- I feel like a "davening machine", it just lost the whole . . .flavor.

Enjoying davening isn’t something that comes right away (for me anyway) that's why it's called an "avoda", and it took me sooo long to finally begin to "tune in" to what it's really about.

Making it into a 3X's a day obligation doesn't seem right, for girls at least, but maybe I'm wrong???

MODERATOR Posted - 18 December 2000 18:12

You definitely do not have to daven marriv (see above). Knock it down to 2x a day and see what happens. If that doesn't work, we can talk about it then.

smile! Posted - 28 December 2000 15:34

I’m a sfaradic female and I say baroch sheamar and vistabacha. I’ve been saying it all my life. Do I have to change and stop saying it? (b/c if I start cutting out parts of davening...I dunno. it’s just strange)

And, if I marry an ashkanasi will I have to start saying them again?!?!

(I’ll feel like a yoyo and I don't even understand fully why I CAN'T say it if I’ve been doing it all my life. ) is it really forbidden?

MODERATOR Posted - 28 December 2000 19:35

Since boruch sheamar and yishtabach (and Birchas krias shema too) may be brachos on Mitzvos se'hazman grama, and Sefardic women do not make brachos on such mitzvos (like lulav etc.) they should not make these brachos either. That's the ruling of the majority of poskim.

You don't have to stop saying those parts of davening, just skip Hashem's name when it appears in the brachah.

Say Boruch atah melech mehulal batichbachos, for instance.

And a good idea would be to "think" Hashem's name where you would normally say it.

So you
say "Boruch ata", then think in your mind Hashem's name, then you say "melech mehulal batishbachos".

The same with the others.

Again, those who say it are not for sure making a brachah L'vatalah, but it's best to do as above.

If you marry an Ashkenzai, you take all Ashkenaz minhagim: No rice on Pesach, you make a brachah on your Lulav, etc. And you will say Hashem's name in these Brachos as well.

belle613 Posted - 22 January 2001 17:52

If im sefardic but I’ve become accustomed to davening and doing other stuff according to ashkenaz minhag (I've gone to ashkezan schools all of my life pretty much) what should I do?

MODERATOR Posted - 22 January 2001 18:51

If your parents are frum and they follow sefardic customs, you should switch to your parents' customs. If they are not frum and therefore do not follow any customs, you may keep the customs of your schools.

smile! Posted - 29 January 2001 23:16

What about "minhag bieet"?

We discussed this in class concerning meat/milk. (that the sfaradim really keep one hour between meat and milk but nowadays we have to do what we hold in our house-even if we hold 6 hours.)

Shouldn't this apply also to davening? and not doesn’t it? (how can we say some minhagim do and some don't?)

MODERATOR Posted - 06 February 2001 14:54

The same rules of customs apply across the board.

There is a difference though between the Brachos and the eating. The waiting (I cannot make out what "minhag beeit" means) between meat and milk is a custom.

You’re supposed to follow the customs of your "place". Without a family to follow, your school becomes your "place".

The Brachah thing is a Halachic disagreement between the Sefardim who follow the Beit Yosef and the Ashkenazim who follow the Ramah.

If a school has Sefardic girls they should be following the Sefardic Halachic guidelines.

Like I said, there are poskim who disagree, but what comes out according to the majority is that women (sefardic) should not say Hashem's name in Boruch Sheamar or Yishtabach.

smile! Posted - 12 February 2001 19:26

Ok I have to be truthful here.

It bothers me that you are saying that sefaradi girls don't say hashems name during- for example- "yeshtabach" all the siddurs that go by sefaradi minhag that I checked (and I did check quite a few) it doesn't say anything about what you said that girls shouldn't say it!!!

AND, ALL the girls I asked ALSO have never heard about what you are talking about. (well-ok- the girls never hearing isn't really any proof but I think that all the siddurs I checked- ArtScroll included- don't mention what you said.)

Now, if what you say is right- I’ll be more then happy to go by it- but I dunno. How do I know who is right?

MODERATOR Posted - 15 February 2001 17:06

First, please note that I am talking about Sefardic girls - like Syrian, Moroccan, Egyptian, Spanish, etc., as opposed to girls who daven Nusach Sefard but are of Ashkenaz descent.

Check out the Siddur made specially for women according to the psakim of the Chacham Ovadiah Yosef.

In there, it says women should say these brachos w/o Hashem's name.

smile! Posted - 20 March 2001 18:40

Welcome back moderator :)

Ok- here’s the question. we are getting siddurs for our graduation and we have to say which nusach we want. our rabbi said most Ashkenazi people daven "sfaradi" and then sfaradi people daven "nusach aduot hamizrah" is this correct?

(I’m sfaradi and I daven nusach I’d like to know if I’ve been davening wrong and to switch or not) thank you!

MODERATOR Posted - 20 March 2001 19:23

Among the Ashkenazim, usually, Chasidim, polish, and Hungarian Jews daven nusach sefard; litvishe and German Jews daven ashkenaz.

Sefardim do daven nusach edot hamizrach, or a variation thereof. (Such as nusach Aram Tzovah for Syrians.)

So you should daven whatever your parent’s daven. If they are not frum, then you should daven whatever nusach those who made you frum daven. When you get married, you will daven the nusach of your husband.

smile2meornot Posted - 11 March 2002 20:18

emess- you said that you can daven in any language.
we recently learned you shouldn’t daven in English b/c the malachim don’t understand it.

And when you daven your prayer gets carried up to Hashem by malachim and if they don’t understand what your saying then well..
its like you repeating to your father what s/o told you in French (or any language you don’t know)

-- moderator- is this true? what are the halachos/ things said on this?

huh?!? Posted - 22 April 2003 9:05

I don’t understand that at all cuz if it was true that the melachim don’t understand what you said if its in English and its not as good then how come we are told by shema kolaynu in shimone esrei to ask HaShem for whatever and in WHATEVER language we want! I don’t understand. Where would the source be for that?

MODERATOR Posted - 22 April 2003 10:08

You can pray in any language; the malachim issue is different (don’t forget - kaddish and a few other prayers are in a foreign language). However, for the regular text of the prayers we do not use foreign language since an exact translation would be nigh impossible.

But for the "personal" prayers, inserted in shema koleinu or elokai netzor, we can and if necessary do pray in foreign languages.

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