LUBAVITCH-----moshiach and meshichists

Jack Posted - 20 May 2001 15:36

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I'm not sure exactly who off hand, but there is a famous story where one Tana would call another Tana mashiach? So why do you say it's wrong to call someone mashiach.

Also, it's known that by finding someone fitting to be mashiach and supporting that person, it will hasten his coming??

MODERATOR Posted - 20 May 2001 19:24

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Please see above regarding Tanaim (Amorayim actually) calling each other Moshiach. Nothing of the sort happened. It is a Meshichist fabrication. And even if it did - because a Tana with Ruach HaKodesh held that someone was Moshiach means any Tom Dick and Harry can say anybody is Moshiach? What's one got to do with the other?

Second, what you say is "known" - that identifying someone as Moshiach makes him come faster - is a total fabrication as well. It says this nowhere; it’s just a concoction of the Meshichistin that they put into our religion from foreign places (like their own imaginations). On the contrary - the Yismach Moshe writes that this prevents Moshaich's coming and it is a great sin.

And the fact that it has never been done in the past shows that it is not true or else it would have been done before.

And even if it were true, you can’t just randomly pick someone and say he is Moshiach without any basis. If you can identify anyone as Moshiach then maybe my students should identify me as Moshiach? And that will bring Moshiach closer? Nope. Sorry.

Jack Posted - 07 June 2001 16:55

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Actually, there is a story about Rebbi Akiva calling Bar Kochva "Mashiach".

Also see Sanhedrin 98B.

Also, when the Rambam writes about Mashiach and how we must wait for HIM, is this him not referring to a man of flesh and blood. To truly incorporate mashiach into our lives is it not seemingly proper to have an idea who he may be.

Also, how can you say this whole idea is "crazy"? Do you actually think that thousands of Lubavitcher Rabbonim and Shluchim, who have learned for many years in Yeshiva, just went crazy after Gimmel Tammuz? Do you think they are saying baseless statements just to push their so called religion or way of thinking? Do you think this is possible from people who have done so much for world jewery including starting the entire teshuva/kiruv/shlichus movement? I don't think so!!!

I also think that many Lubavitchers are just saying it for no reason and just because of peer pressure. BTW, if you think that I am mishichist in any way, you are wrong. If you knew about Lubavitch Yeshiva's and knew the yeshivah I learn in, you would know that I'm not. I don't support the entire thing, but I do not feel that it's correct to deny it.

MODERATOR Posted - 11 June 2001 23:53

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Jack,

Here's the answers to your post:

“Actually, there is a story about Rebbi Akiva calling Bar Kochva "Mashiach". “

Yes, and many Jews were killed because Bar Kochba was not in fact Moshiach. Which shows us that if you say someone is Moshiach you better be correct or else. And from the fact that R. Akiva did not call anyone else Moshiach except Bar Kochba - he did not even call his Rebbi Moshiach - shows that you can't just apply the label "Moshiach" to whoever you want, or whoever is your Rebbe.

“Also see Sanhedrin 98B.”
This is one of the Big Lies told by the Lubavitcher Meshichists. Sanhedrim 98b does not say anyone said anyone else is Moshiach. Please see above.

“ Also, when the Rambam writes about Mashiach and how we must wait for HIM, is this him not referring to a man of flesh and blood.”

Yes, but the Rambam doesn’t say who that flesh and blood is. We wait for Moshiach whoever it may be.

“ To truly incorporate mashiach into our lives is it not seemingly proper to have an idea who he may be.”

No. This is another Meshichist lie. It says this nowhere. The obligation to wait for Moshiach is equally fulfilled by those who have no idea who he may be. It says nowhere that it is better to have an idea of his identity. On the contrary, identifying someone as Moshiach if he is not is a terrible sin, as I have quoted in the above posts.

“ Also, how can you say this whole idea is "crazy"? Do you actually think that thousands of Lubavitcher Rabbonim and Shluchim, who have learned for many years in Yeshiva, just went crazy after Gimmel Tammuz? “

Bigger people than these Chasidim were the followers of Shabsi Tzvi, Korach, and other villains. But in this case, it depends what they were taught in Yeshiva. If they were taught that it says in Sanhedrin 98b that you should say your Rebbe is Moshiach, or that "Chassidus" says it’s a good thing, then the answer is BECAUSE they learned in those particular Yeshivos is why they can believe this nonsense. Had they learned in Yeshivos where these falsehoods have not been spread they would not believe it.

There are reasons why only Lubavitch is vulnerable, and no other Chasidus ever suffered this kind of madness. It has to do with the teachings that they have been given over the past 50 years, teachings which are not shared by any other faction of Jewry, and which cause Lubavitch to earn the opposition of our Torah leaders. I will, IY"H explain this in a future post.

“Do you think they are saying baseless statements just to push their so called religion or way of thinking?”

Why they are doing it does not concern me.

“ Do you think this is possible from people who have done so much for world jewery including starting the entire teshuva/kiruv/shlichus movement? “

What makes you think that if someone starts a Kiruv movement that means his Hashkofos have to be correct???