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HALACHA-----shabbos/ amira lyisroel


user1 Posted - 22 November 2000 14:23

If one holds 72 min after shabbos like RT can he tell a Jew who holds less to do melacha for him?

Similarly if you don’t open cans on shabbos can you tell a sefardi to open one for you
(Please cite a source in your answer if possible)


MODERATOR Posted - 22 November 2000 15:05

There are two issues here:

(1) If you hold something is prohibited and someone else holds it is permitted, are you allowed to cause the other person to do it?

This is a disagreement between the Shaar HaMelech and the Ksav Sofer. You can find a discussion about this disagreement in Minchas Shlomo by Rav Shlomo Zalman Aurbach ZT"L, #44. Rav Shlomo Zalman adds that this disagreement perhaps would only apply if the prohibition involved is D'Oraisa, but regarding a rabbinic prohibition, everyone would perhaps agree that it is permitted.

Of course, this disagreement only applies if the person who holds it is permitted has legitimate reason to hold like that. If he has no legitimate authority to rely on, then everyone would agree that you can't allow him to do it.

(2) Regarding Shabbos there is another issue. Even if there is no prohibition to cause the other person to do what you hold is assur, since he holds it is Mutar, on Shabbos there is a prohibition of telling a non-Jew to do Melachah for you, even though the non-Jew is allowed to be Mechalel Shabbos. So if I tell a Jew to do melachah for me, is that more permitted than telling a non-Jew to do Melahcah for me?

This, too, is a Machlokes. The Rashba holds there is no prohibition of "amirah l'yisrael" even though there is a prohibition of "amirah l'akum." Ramban disagrees. he holds the prohibition of Amirah L'Akum means that the Jew is not allowed to have Melachos done for him even in a permitted way.

This Ramban is a major element of Rav Moshe Feinstein ZTL's famous teshuva prohibiting Shabbos clocks.

Therefore, all prohibitions besides Shabbos would be subject to Machlokes #1 above. Add to that the fact that there are opinions (see responsa Pnei Yehoshua) that even though Lifnei Iver is a Torah prohibition, in a case where poskim disagree, you can be lenient, what emerges is legitimate reason to be lenient, but there are still halachic opinions that would be Machmir.

Regarding Shabbos, however, there is the additional possible prohibition of "amirah l'yisroel". Therefore, I would say that regarding Shabbos you should be Machmir, but not to protest (be mocheh) against someone who follows a lenient ruling.

Additional information on this topic:

Responsa Shevet HaLevi (Rav Wosner) I:53 prohibits; Teshuvos V'Hanhagos (Rav Moshe Shterenbuch) I:234 says that it is only prohibited if you hold like Rabbeinu Tam as a matter of policy, but if you hold that Rabbeinu Tam merely as a chumrah then it would be permitted.

sarchie Posted - 24 November 2000 17:02

First of all, if someone is already driving or carrying on shabbos, can you ask them to take something for you? also, why do we invite ppl for shabbos and yom tov if we KNOW they will drive. (not shomer shabbos, and lives to far etc) wouldn’t that be wrong bc we are sort of 'forcing' them to do a melacha?

MODERATOR Posted - 24 November 2000 17:15

If someone is doing an Aveirah you cannot ask them to do an additional Aveirah for you.

You can never ask, or encourage someone to do an aveirah, even if he would be doing it anyway.

You are allowed to invite someone over for Shabbos if you know he will drive ONLY if it is possible for him to come to you without driving. In other words, if you invite him let's say for Friday night and he lives too far to walk, you have to tell him that he can stay over by you the whole Shabbos. This way it is HIS CHOICE to be mechalel Shabbos, not caused by you.

If on the other hand, you are inviting someone for let's say the day meal only, and it is too far for him to walk to your house, you are getting an aveirah since you are asking him to break Shabbos.

If he lives close enough to walk, then you are not asking him to break Shabbos by coming to you, and if he drives anyway, that's his choice.

Even considering all of the above, you should only invite him if you think there is a Kiruv purpose in doing so. If there is no Kiruv potential for the guest, don't do it.

Also, we are assuming that even if he would not drive to you, since he does not keep Shabbos, he would be driving around somewhere else anyway, so he is not even doing an aveirah because of you. On the contrary, without coming to your house, he may be doing more Chilul Shabbos.

Interesting Halachic result of this idea: If you are let's say having a baby and have to call a taxi to take you to the hospital on Shabbos, should you call a non-Jewish or Jewish owned taxi?

Answer: According to R. Shlomo Zalman Aurbach ZT"L, call the Jewish taxi. If you don't call him, he will be driving people all over the place and be violating Shabbos anyway. At least if you call him, he will, for that period of time he is taking you to the hospital, not violating Shabbos (since he's allowed to drive you there), and so you're saving him from more Chilul Shabbos by calling him.

Of course this only applies if without you he would be doing other calls. If it's like 4:00 am and he'd be sleeping without you, then call the goy.

Another interesting Halachah: If you invite a non-religious guy for a Shabbos day meal, you should get him to make the Friday night Kiddush (the bracho, not the Yom Hashishi part), or you be Motzi him. Since he did not make Kiddush Friday night, he is obligated to do so in the day. NOTE: This only applies if the guy believes in G-d but is not religious anyway. If he does not believe in G-d, then his brocho anyway doesn't count, since he doesn't believe he's making a brocho. In which case he should not make it, but even more important, you should not make the bracha to be motzi him.

21 Posted - 21 December 2000 20:14

Why cant you invite someone for shabbos(even if they'll have to drive) if u know he'll be doing many more avairos if u don’t. In YD 181 R akiva eiger says by cutting off payos that it might be better for a women to do it to a man if he will do it anyway himself bec the net result is less avairos being done and by lifney iver this is considered.

Also R Aurbach in minchas shlomo says you may feed someone knowing he wont wash(in a case where asking him to wash nicely doesn’t help) bec. by being nice to him will result in more mitzvos therefore lifnei iver is permitted rather lifney iver becomes a mitzvah. So why would shabbos be different?

- 21 December 2000 20:42

It has nothing to do with Shabbos. It is because the "he would have done more aveiros without me" logic only helps to eliminate the prohibition of Lifnei Iver, but not the prohibition of Meisis.

Rav Moshe Feinstein ZT"L (Igros Moshe OH I:99) explains:

Lifnei Iver is when I invite you to my house for Shabbos where you could walk if you want, but I know you will drive. In such a case, I did not TELL you to drive, but my invitation is what caused you to drive. My invitation is therefore called a Michshal - a stumbling block, something that you will trip over, something that will cause you problems, and is prohibited.

However, if my invitation will make you less problems then you would have without it, it does not qualify as a "stumbling block" - a michshal - and is permitted.

But if I explicitly ask him "Please be Mechalel Shabbos" that's a different, additional sin. That's called "meisis". I am not allowed to ask you to do a sin. This is true even if by doing your sin you will be prevented from doing other, worse sins.

If I can say "I may have invited him to my house, but didn’t ask him to DRIVE on Shabbos, he did it on his own", then if your invitation prevents more sins you avoided Lifnei Iver.

But if you DID ask him to drive, you violated meisis. Even if your invitation prevented more sins. because meisis doesn't depend on what is called a "stumbling block"; it is simply prohibited to ask someone to commit a sin. Period.

Therefore, if you ask him to come to your house on Shabbos where he cannot get there by foot, it is the same as asking him to drive on Shabbos, and that is meisis.

21 Posted - 22 December 2000 14:52

Thanks for the quick response.

Would it avoid the problem of meisis if you extended an invitation to him to sleep at your house as well staying there entire shabbos although you know 99% chance is that he will refuse this invitation but you are now creating a possibility thereby not compelling him to break shabbos.

- 22 December 2000 14:59

That is permitted, since you did not ask him to violate Shabbos. He could have kept Shabbos and still honored your invitation. It was his choice not to.

Truth Seeker Posted - 21 July 2003 12:43

An interesting nafka mina in the shailo discussed here would be this:

Person A in location A where it is after 72 min. talking on the phone to person B in location B where it is before 72 min. but after a legitimate earlier z'man for that place.

Wouldn't this remove the 'amira L'Yisroel' part of the shaila for person A?

By the way, while for most of the year, in most locations, 72 minutes is in fact the latest of the *widely* accepted z'manim for motsei Shabbos, it should be noted that in northern latitudes in the summer, 72 minutes is actually *earlier* than the widely-accepted 8.5 degree solar depression (varies with location and season). In Manchester this gets as late as 96 minutes after shkia!!

(which means that at around the time of the summer solstice- approx. June 21- it takes 96 minutes to reach the same level of darkness that is reached in NYC by 52 minutes!

MODERATOR Posted - 21 July 2003 12:56

If you hold that 72 minutes is the primary halachic zman of motzoi shabbos - as per the majority of poskim - then you may not ask someone to do melachah for you even if he does not hold from 72 minutes, since you hold it is still shabbos even for him.

The issue of Rabbeinu Tam (72) vs. the Geonim (3 stars) is not a matter of minhag like nusach sefard vs. ashkenaz. It is a halachic dispute, though different communities are accustomed to following different shitos. If you hold like Rabbeinu Tam, that means until 72 its still Shabbos, period. For everyone. If someone disagrees that his business, but according to you, its Shabbos even for him.

The time frame of 72 minutes is in the Gemora, and the fact that 72 is kept everywhere from Eretz Yisroel to London to NY to Baghdad is difficult to understand, and that is basically the GRA's problem with Rabbeinu Tam.

Nevertheless, Rabbeinu Tam and the majority of Rishonim and Achronim hold like that, as does the Shulchan Aruch and Nosei Keylim.

However, you are correct that if 3 stars come out AFTER 72 minutes, even Rabbeinu Tam would agree that you have to wait until then.

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