ZIONISM-----eilu v'eilu?

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BatMelech

Posted - 30 April 2002 16:06

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Moderator,

I never fully understood the concept of "Eleh VEleh Divrei Elokim CHaim". If there can be more than one approach and both can be "right", then how do we decide what is truly right?? How can they both be emet?

How do we decide for ourselves whether to believe your view that we should not believe in the State of Israel and that it is a curse for us before mashiach, or all the equally esteemed rabbis who believe that the State of Israel is a blessing?

How do we decide whether Torah V Maddah is a good thing or a horrible thing? Such great Rabbanim support each view that it seems as if they are both right-which doesn't make any sense! Please help me figure out which path to take..and whether one path is better than another.

Thanks.

MODERATOR Posted - 30 April 2002 16:37

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In a case where you do not know what to do, you should follow the majority - qualitative and quantitative - of Bnei Torah and their leaders.

In both cases you mentioned, the majority of Gedolei Yisroel (and that's even if you will include many in the category of Gedolei Yisroel people who I wouldn’t include, which is the crux of the issue here) were clearly fire against Zionism and considered it heresy.

This includes the Chofezt Chaim, the Chazon Ish, Rav Chaim Brisker and the Brisker Rav, Rav SR Hirsch, the Rogachover Gaon, The Lubavithcer Rebbe (Rashab), Rav Elchono Wasserman and all the other Talmidim of the Chofezt Chaim and Rav Chaim, and others.

That roster of Torah giants is not even approached by the "other side". So that’s who you follow.

You should take the same approach to Torah Umada. The great majority of Torah authorities considered it "treif". In the absence of any other ability to determine who is right and who is wrong, that is the course you should follow.

(You may then use the same formula to determine who in fact are considered "esteemed rabbis", and Gedolei Yisroel and you will see your first decision enforced.)

TheBster Posted - 30 July 2002 18:13

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R' SR Hirsch? And R'Chaim? Are you certain about that? they did live many years before Zionism was really an issue like it is today.

In fact in Rav EM Klugman's notes on the "19 Letters" he expresses doubt as to what would R' Hirsch's view on the State of Israel be nowadays. Maybe R' Hirsch and R' Chaim were against the teachings of Hertzl but that’s a far, far cry from Rav Kook.

Yoffe Talmud Torah Im Derech Eretz

MODERATOR Posted - 30 July 2002 21:06

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No. Rav Chaim, and Rav Hirsch were against the idea of creating a Jewish Sovereign State in Erezt Yisroel before the coming of Moshiach.

Rav Hirsch writes extensively about the Three Oaths and that Jews in Golus are obligated to give their loyalties to their host countries. This is the same reason for the objections to Zionism across the board. It is all over his writings. It has nothing to do with Herzl. Look it up please.

AriB Posted - 19 August 2002 15:27

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and yet many of today's Roshei Yeshiva tell their students to vote in Israeli elections thus granting legitimacy to the idea of a state? Aguda has even sat in the ruling government several times. How is this not Zionism?

MODERATOR Posted - 19 August 2002 15:32

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There are those - the Satmar Rav and Brisker Rav mostly - who agree with you and therefore their followers do not vote in the Israeli elections.

Rav Aharon Kotler ZTL held differently - that voting accomplishes more than it damages. Namely, that even though the State of Israel should never have existed, at the very least, we have it within our power to make sure that it does not do more damage than it already has, by controlling its policies and making it as non-anti-religious as possible. This is damage control, not an endorsement.

Rav Shach ZTL, who was the head of a party himself (Degel HaTorah) used to pray every day, his Talmidim report, for the State to be abolished without one Jew being harmed. In his seforim he clearly writes how the State of Israel serves only to cause anti-semitism in the world and endangers Jews through hisgarus b'umos.

runnerc Posted - 21 September 2004 8:23

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I showed this to my friend who asked:

a person can love eretz yisrael and be against the secular govt. I fail to see the issue with establishing a kosher govt though. after the b"h was destroyed gedaliah was in charge - that was a govt, no?

MODERATOR Posted - 21 September 2004 8:25

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Gedalia was appointed by the Babylonian government, who was the sovereign power over Eretz Yisroel, to be manager over the Jewish population. it was not a Jewish government chas vsholom.

Please see the Zionism section on the site. There you will find that the Gemora, Rambam, and Poskim all say that it is prohibited to have a Jewish government in Eretz Yisroel during golus. The penalty for doing so, the Gemora says, is that Jews "will be hunted and killed like game in the field"