ZIONISM-----discussion w/ phile gal 3

israel-phile gal Posted - 20 November 2002 14:39

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I state again for the third time- that I do not feel sinah towards the people who are against Israel- but rather do not understand them. I do not understand how they can brush away all those Jews who lost friends, family, neighbors in the terrorist attack.

That is plain cold hearted- whether you want to admit it or not- those "Zionists" are considered your brothers & sisters, they are yours as well as my fellow Jews.

Even if the satmars are going to speak with the Arabs having in mind that they can save Jewish blood- that's not what it seems, & we learn from the Tanach that one is not allowed to do something if they know it will appear poorly in another person's eyes, & besides, I can definitely state as a fact, that anyone hurt in a terrorist attack does not look at the satmar people with thankful eyes, but they feel hurt & betrayed, & then they think that this is how all religious Jews behave- & if they themselves are not religious, they may get so turned away from Judaism like this, & decide that they never want to be religious if this is how they act.

You may have good intentions, but if they are unknown to other people, people will interpret things for themselves- & one is not allowed to give his zulat that opportunity...

I think you are very wrong to say that the miracles are irrelevant, because they are not. NOTHING with G-d is EVER irrelevant!

I must say I was very hurt by this comment. G-d does everything for a reason, so if He performed those miracles- which is nothing more than what they are, & I do believe He performed them- then there was a reason- you & I can interpret them differently...I just want to warn you about the strong lashon you are using on this site.

Since you are the Rav of this site, it is your job to make sure you are mekarev people & not pushing them away.

And I must say, that if I wasn't so strongly sure of my beliefs that Judaism is the right religion- I think I might have been very turned off by the way you said a few things...it says- halachah ki'bet Hillel- & when mashiach comes, then it will be ki'bet Shamai.

Hillel was a kindhearted person, who made sure never to hurt another person, while Shamai was strict & more severe (because he was on a higher madraigah) therefore, in time of galut, when bnei yisrael need a leader who is understanding & kind, we need someone like Hillel.

Once mashiach is here, we can have more strict leaders because by then we have to know what we stand for...

I disagree with you about only people who don’t know what they were talking about said that mashiach would come in 1967- MANY MANY rabbanim & Gedolim were saying that if only the Israeli army & government hadn't claimed those "powers" for themselves we would have had him...

This morning I was speaking to my mishlei teacher about what you answered to me yesterday- hoping to clarify beliefs...I agree with what she says- she said that she believes in tzion- but not in Zionism. I can understand that. she loves Israel (she is from there) & thinks that is the greatest gift G-d gave us (besides the torah, but she does not agree with how the government is running things, or with the anti religious actions- which I quite agree on, because I am religious as well...

You did not address the fact that many of gedolai yisrael live / lived in Israel...& I still want to know if you are saying that al those Jews who live in Israel are wrong for it, or for sending your kids to seminaries/yeshivot there...

shabbat shalom

MODERATOR Posted - 20 November 2002 15:21

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Saying that you want to spit in people’s faces, which you said, is NOT the same as saying merely that you don’t understand them.

Your assumption that being against Zionism is brushing away victims and deaths yada yada, is false, and the result of Zionist teachings that assume Zionism saves lives or that it is a glorious cause worth dying for.

You have been grossly misinformed about many facts - first, it is not the Satmar people that rally with the Palestinians. They are against such action. Second, it is not true that people hurt in an attack think any particular way about them - it depends on their Hashkafa to begin with. Rabbi Boruch Kaplan ZTL, who was a survivor of the Chevron Yeshiva massacre, became a passionate anti-Zionist after he saw the bloodshed in Chevron that was caused by the Zionists trying to push their agenda on the Arabs - until the Arabs pushed back. There are many others, too, who are begging to make peace and stop the expansion of the settlements and the antagonizing of the Arabs which only leads to more bloodshed.

But although we surely feel the pain of the victims and our hearts go out to them with tears and compassion, their opinion does is not authoritative - the Halachah is. And nothing at all should make a difference in how we behave except how the torah tells us to - and the Torah tells us that Zionism is wrong, going up against the nations of the world - including Arabs - is wrong, fighting wars in Golus is wrong, all of which leads to more victims and spilling of Jewish blood.

The difference between the Zionists and Torah Jews is that they both agree that the State of Israel causes deaths of Jews; the Zionists think it is "worthwhile" for the Zionist cause, the torah Jews think that Jewish lives are worth more than having some State. You cant start a war with people, and then blame those who want peace for not respecting the deaths of the victims. The biggest honor for all the people who died r"l in Israel is if the deaths would end. As they say, "It is better to live for a cause than to die for a cause." The more people who are saved, the more honor it is for those who were not, r"l.

And that’s what these people are trying to do - end the deaths. Its amazing how that can bother people.

As far as your lesson from Tanach that you shouldn’t do what looks bad, that’s true, but if by doing so you will be saving Jewish lives, then go ahead an do something that looks bad. You’d break Shabbos and eat non kosher to save Jewish lives, you’d surely do something that can be misunderstood by those who refuse to understand.

If people don’t understand that Hatzolah are driving to save lives, should they let people die?

Miracles are of course relevant. What I meant was, they’re not relevant to our deciding what’s right ands wrong. That’s not the right way to determine correct Hashkofos - only the Torah is.

Zionism has nothing to do with living in EY. Doing so is a wonderful thing (for some people - for toehrs its a bad thing). Zionism means, in this context, having out own State. That’s against the Torah. Living there is fine, having a government - whether they are frum or not - is against the Torah.

Zionism has nothing to do with Eretz Yisroel - it has to do with the political idea of sovereign statehood there. That is what is opposed, not living there.