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EMUNAH & BITACHON-----proofs 2


FormerFrum Posted - 06 November 2001 14:56

How do we know that there was no dissent, or that a rival group did not come out and say that the records of the revelation were false? Also, when one studies Greek myths, which is what the Torah is comparable to, one begins with the premise that there is some historical truth, but the legends are embellished. Same with the Torah.

MODERATOR Posted - 06 November 2001 15:48

Of all the different dissident sects on record, including Christians, not a single one questioned the revelation. This is true despite the fact that denying the revelation or describing it differently would have been to their interest, and conceding to it is very much against their own interest.

So every single group on record willingly conceded to a revelation where G-d said to follow the Torah, which put them at a tremendous disadvantage and forced them to weave the most far out tales in order to justify their dissent.

Nobody would do this unless they had to. And the fact that everybody on record did it shows clearly that they had no choice. If it wasn’t a historically accepted fact, they would not do it.

Every single version of the Torah throughout the world ever found has the exact same narratives in it. Greek mythology (totally incomparable to the Torah) has numerous versions, despite its relative geographic narrowness and limited time frame. The Torah on the other hand, which has been in the hands of religions, tribes, and even atheists all over the world for thousands of years - factions which were warring with each other even - all have the exact same stories without any discrepancies.

grend123 Posted - 15 November 2001 21:31

Actually Danny, there ARE dissenting versions of history, and they have been recorded.

The records of the Kaarites, the Dead Sea Scrolls, Josephus and Philo, and even statements in Chazal clearly say that the Chachamim were ONE of a number of groups in Bayis Sheini, each of which believed that it had the correct Mesorah (one of my Rebbeim used to say that the authors of the dead sea scrolls would have considered the Chachamim to not have been 'frum'!).

To take a deterministic viewpoint (which is very possibly the correct way to look at it) the Chachamin won the battle, so to speak, because they were correct, but it's just plain ignorance to claim that there were no other opinions. Please check your history before you make blanket statements!

Now, I'm a frum Jew, and I believe entirely in Torah Misinai, but one cannot disregard history simply because it doesn’t fit one's outlook; you must base your Emunah on the facts, not on a rose colored view of history in which there was never any dissent.

MODERATOR Posted - 15 November 2001 22:07


That's the point. Despite all the disagreements, no group ever denied the giving of the Torah. That is one thing that was indisputable.

wstdonwiteout Posted - 10 December 2001 20:22

I am like many teenagers who are just lost trying to figure out life. What I often find when looking at peoples posts is that almost all the questions are about why we should believe in JUDAISM.

Almost none of them are about why we should believe in GOD. When I say GOD I am referring to the concept of GOD (all powerful being) in general. I am not referring to the Jewish perspective of what GOD is.

The one thing that I believe in is the fact that something has created the universe. This must be true because the world is simply too complex for everything to have just evolved. Though I know that the world was created by something (though I’m not exactly by whom or what) I want to know why we shouldn’t believe that we were created and then simply left to ourselves by GOD.

I have never in all my life seen any evidence that there is an all powerful being controlling or watching (or doing the things that GOD does) me. Why should I just blindly believe in the fact that their is A GOD when there is no evidence.

MODERATOR Posted - 10 December 2001 20:27


But there is evidence. Proof, even. Very solid proof that the atheists have yet to find answers to. Rabbi Kelleman's books were recommended strongly by the girl here, and the books of Rabbi Avigdor Miller ZTL are also replete with descriptions of such evidence. You may also want to attend a Discovery Seminar by AIsh HaTorah. Check out

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