ZIONISM / RELIGIOUS-----propaganda

FlippedOutFish Posted - 06 February 2008 19:44

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Did you receive my email? That’s why I wanted a consensus of all poskim on these issues.

MODERATOR Posted - 08 February 2008 7:55

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I got your email. I will answer bli neder, but I can only do it when I have some time to breathe. I will explain at length, but what I said before is still true - what you are asking for will not help. If your Modern Orthodox group was interested in the truth in this matter they would have realized it long ago. Read Rav Schwab's article that taon reprinted in this forum - you think such people will listen to reason. They are blindly following their own nonsensical religion - Zionism.

If you demonstrate that their "proofs" are foolish they’ll say yes but eilu v'eilu; if you demonstrate that they’ve falsified they’ll just come up with other ones out of their hat (the "proof" you have from rav elyashevs haskama is no proof at all to anything).

Every word that they utter on this topic is propaganda - for example - the way you describe the debate - that some are more "accepting" than others - that itself is a treif way of describing the issue. "More accepting" is first of all a relative term which, although taken without thought would give the impression of some level of acceptance - maybe even "more" acceptance than the person the phrase was designed to exclude, the reality is completely different.

If one person says something is kefirah and the other says it is only apikorsus and the third says its just misa bidei shamayim, then you go around saying "well the third person has "a more accepting attitude" toward the act" you are propagandizing, which is what whoever is giving you the false information you have on this issue is doing. Worse yet, it frames the issue in terms of a personality - approach - midos - thing rather than a Torah principle.

"Accepting" and "rejecting" is not the issue - that falsely frames the debate in terms of how people respond to Zionism, which is a misrepresentation of the facts,. The issue is not a debate about accepting or rejecting Zionism - the issue is what the Torah says, and whether ZIONISM accepts or rejects the Torah. Doing it your way assumes that Zionism exists and subsequently there is some kind of discussion regarding whether or not to accept it. No. The Torah exists, and it was always qualified certain things as idolatry. Zionists came and adopted certain idolatrous beliefs as their own.

The issue isn’t whether the Rabbonim "accept" or "reject' their beliefs. Their beliefs were analyzed and paskened on way before Zionists were born. And the worst id that such rhetoric frames the issue as a personality - midos thing . Some are "more accepting" and others are more "rejecting" of Zionism. Please. Rejecting has a negative connotation and accepting has a more tolerant, open-minded connotation. All this is propaganda, to which you are subject.

If I were you I would accept the advice Rav Weintraub gave you, and (a) forget about trying to convince your Zionist friends and (b) understand yourself all the problems with Zionism, and what constitutes a godols' approval of something, who is a Godol, and what the real issues are.

First they forge things in the name of the Satmar Rebbe and Brisker Rav, then Rav Ahron Kotler, now you have Rav Moshe Feinstein and Rav Shlomo Zalman on the list too. You need to stop believing everything people tell you - go research the things yourself if you want - and understand also how discredited and unreliable the Zionist establishment has proven to be when it comes to facts.

You’re talking about totally irrational people. People who pride themselves on being "rationalists", scientific minds, objective, level headed, middle of the road people , heirs to the Rambam etc etc --- until they start screaming about how the 6-day war a MIRACLE and Israelis very existence is a MIRACLE and then they become the biggest true believers and mystics in the world no less primitive than those who thought a lunar eclipse means the gods are angry , who see miracles in everything that they want to see them in.

The six day war was understood by every military and political leader in the world as the most natural occurrence possible (President Johnson predicted the war would last less than a week. The Satmar Rebbe said "If the war was a miracle then Johnson was a Navi who announces imminent miracles"). Go do Google research on the greatest military upsets in history --- you will not even find the 6 day war considered anywhere. It wasn’t even considered a great surprise. But Zionists claim MIRACEL!!! Woo hoo. The rationalists become cavemen! They have no rhyme or reason to their thinking and they have been shown form time to time again that their ideas are nothing less than laughable they still go as if nothing happened. You think these people will listen to one word you say? Forget it.

Bli neder I will answer your email when I get some time. In the meantime, remember what Rav Weintraub told you: Why follow those people when you can follow Gedolim who everyone agrees are Gedolim. You wouldn’t go to a doctor who the greatest doctors in the world said is killing his patients, even if he is a "legitimate doctor". Don’t follow those people. If you’re not yet able to tell on your own who the real Gedolim are, then use Rav Weintraub's formula. I think his advice is good.