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ZIONISM-----eilu v'eilu? 3 (updated 1/14/08)

FlippedOutFish Posted - 02 January 2008 9:09

The Mod has quoted the Pardes article repeatedly about Rabbi Wasserman, Rabbi Kotler, Rabbi Rottenberg from Antwerp, and rabbis from Czechoslovakia and Hungary were unanimous in rejecting any proposal for a "Jewish State". Accepted

But how do you explain the view of the other Rabbanim as stated:

"Admo"rim from Boyan and Sadigora, Rav Tzirelson (the president of the [Agudath Israel] congress), Rav Levin from Reisha (the head of Agudath Israel), and Rav Sorotzkin, [who said that] it is possible to agree, according to the laws of the Torah, to the establishment of a Jewish state in its portion of the land of Israel without denying the belief in the coming of the redeemer."

Can you please explain?

MODERATOR Posted - 02 January 2008 9:20

I already did, elsewhere. Of course there were rabbis, especially in those days, who held like that (the Telzers changed their position radically BH - they used to even celebrate Yom haatzmaut!), but as I said, the Gedolei HaDor - the greatest of the generation who Klall Yisroel collectively relies on for guidance - were on one side. The Brisker Rav, Chazon Ish, Rav Ahron Kotler and Rav Chaim Ozer and those in that category were all unanimous. They did not consider the other side even a legitimate shitah - so why should we?

In fact, Rav Ahron and Rav Elchonon wanted to walk out of that meeting in protest! But Rav Chaim Ozer, who they contacted for advice, told them to stay and Elchonon wanted to walk out of that meeting in protest, but Rav Chaim Ozer, who they contacted for advice, told them to stay and voice their side.

Rav Tzirelson, the Sadigerer Rebbe et al were legitimate people, but our job is to follow the Gedolei HaDor, who did not even consider the opinion of those rabbis as even a legitimate opposing view. If there was any single person in that side who was as great as a Rav Ahron a Brisker Rav a Chazon Ish a Rav Chaim Ozer, or others, you could have a question, but of course there was not.

If the great Gedolei HaDor considered that opinion simply an error and not worth even being part of the discussion, then we should not either.

This issue is not an easy one even for Talmidei Chachamim. It took the greatest of the generation - thank G-d Hashem sent us such great leaders - to point out the terrible mistake in Zionism, religious or otherwise. It’s not like you can look it up in the Mishna Brura - it involves a deep and broad understanding of Halachah and Agada. Boruch Hashem the Gedolei HaDor were on the same page with this.

FlippedOutFish Posted - 08 January 2008 18:51

One can always see glimpse and pieces from various books but that’s not clear enough. For if you show that to a religious Zionist or anyone affiliated they will say "there is always another side" Eilu Veilu divrei elokim emet. There needs to be something that will include all opinions quotes, statements Hashkafos and torahs of all Gedolei Yisroel.

2. I don’t know the status on the frumteens book it doesn’t look like anything is coming out soon and it will be just one issue in the book. That is not good enough because people will jus argue.

3. The other point is not true that people who will want to read this will know how to read reg seforim anyway. There are thousands of people who can be so extreme on Zionism and can read Rishonim or Achronim correctly. Also, it would be much easier in even for people in America who know how to read seforim already anyway. In this way in English the statements will be clear and there will be no confusion. This way people will have free access to read it for themselves and determine their opinions. It will be much easier to show people why they are wrong instead of just saying look at this site jewsagainstzionism or frumteens. A book like this will be Mekarev thousands of people even views of some Rabbanim and make a huge impact on the world of the Jews.-Because right now literally thousands upon thousands of people believe how Zionism is the fundamental belief in Judaism and it’s not their fault that’s what they are being told that’s what they are learning.

I would actually say the exact opposite of you’re point that the people who would be interested already know how to read seforim. I would say fakert that the people who know how to read seforim could care less about this issue since they already have a Rebbi and know how to learn and find the right Hashkafa to them it will be Bitul torah and politics for a typical yeshiva bochur. But for the people who don’t know how to read seforim like most of the Jews in America will be dying to get a book like this for this is a fundamental belief they are being fed as the exact truth.

In any event its pretty sad how there could be a English sefer lets say "pro-Israel" for argument sake the book "Eim Habanim Semeicha"-can be translated in English and be sold at every seforim/judaica store in America but Vayoel Moshe/Efes Biltecha Goaleinu can not be translated at all!

Not just any book but there is any English koveitz or pamphlet or article just showing some of the statements of our Gedolim. People are so blinded out there and no one or Rav can make something against it. Are they afraid that people will not hold of them are they afraid of political pressure? To the point were they must conceal truth?

Why does Hashem conceal the truth from the eyes of thousands of Yidden and allow English Zionist books or articles to be distributed?

Can someone find anything please anyone or Moderator come out with a little kovietz or pamphlet or article in English to reveal things people were so blinded into following?
"makom Sheein anashim Hishtadel Liyihot ish"-In a place where there is no man, strive to be that man."
Is anyone willing to help half of klall Yisroel?

MODERATOR Posted - 13 January 2008 13:10

Our goal is not to convince religious Zionists that they are wrong. If they don’t realize that already, they are either in denial (as the Chazon Ish said about them) or they are blindly following their "leaders", and blindness is not dispelled through light.

There is enough of the truth out there, and in fact, from the laughable quality of the Zionist apologetics it should be obvious to them that there is nothing to say in their defense. If this were any other shaila - hilchos tefillin or shabbos for example - they would never rely on the unintelligible defenses of smaller rabbis against the Gedolei Yisroel's clear and obvious proofs. Nor would they say "there are other opinions." The consensus of the Gedolei Yisroel is clear, as is the consensus that there is no legitimate basis for the other side, any more than there is for worshipping the egel.
We live, again, in the times of Korach, the egel, Yeravam ben Neva. The gedolim then the greatest ones - had one opinion and people followed the wrong side not because of lack of ability to see who was right but because of lack of desire to see who is right.

Yet then, there were much much better reasons to be on the wrong side,. Much better. Shabse Tzvi performed real miracles and was a real Torah giant. Nothing compared to the defenses presented by the religious Zionists of today, which include simple forgeries, fraud, and Torah so clearly wrong, that clearly, logic and proofs and reasoning will not sway them

A bit of light dispels much darkness, but even a lot of light cannot dispel blindness.

And that’s what the Chazon Ish said - Zionist know deep down they are wrong - like the Tzedukim of old - they just don’t want to admit it.

Our job is to teach people the truth, and even to prove it to them. That has been done. If there are people who will not be convinced even though they have been proven wrong, we should go back to our Gemoras and finish another sugya. Our energies are better spent that way than on banging our heads against the wall.

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