HASHEM------emotions? 2
UGoGirl Posted - 11 August 2003 3:34
If there is a topic about this already, can s/o please tell me where. Otherwise, this has been bothering me for a while.
Does God love certain people more than others?
Does He love the righteous people more than He likes me?
It seems to make sense, yet it's so scary.
MODERATOR Posted - 11 August 2003 3:43
Well, when we use the verb "loves" in reference to G-d we don’t mean literal love. G-d has no emotions. We mean merely a description of how He treats people, that is, in a way that if we would treat people like that, we would say that we "love" them. It means a status of importance that G-d bestows on people, where He will sometimes even overturn the laws of heaven and earth for them. But it does not involve emotions.
That having been said, the answer is yes, G-d "loves" - kivyachol - some people more than others.
Punims Posted - 16 August 2003 20:55
If that's true, then people would become 'better' ppl, just because they want G-d on their side to "love" them more.
Isn't that a wrong way to come to do mitzvos?
MODERATOR Posted - 16 August 2003 21:40
Any way that a person comes to do Mitzvos is "right". Mitoch shelo lishmah bah lishmah.
And among the levels of shelo lishmah, a desire to attain Hashem's love is pretty lofty.
Jess1246 Posted - 21 July 2004 15:44
So let me get this straight....everything that's said about "G-d's love" isn't literal at all?
So G-d's feelings about us are totally neutral, or don't really exist? Sorry, its just kind of a weird realization to think that...but if G-d didn't really "love" us, and if He doesn't "need" or "want" anything, then what would be His motivation to create the world?
MODERATOR Posted - 21 July 2004 16:32
Right. G-d's "love" isn’t literal. Neither is His anger, or any emotions. Its like when you put the wrong software in your computer and it stops doing what its supposed to do, you may say "the computer doesn’t like this" or even "it got angry at me for putting this in". Its just a moshol.
And your question that if so, why did G-d make the world is a wonderful one, and by asking it you have uncovered one of the greatest teachings of Creation:
G-d created the world for OUR benefit, with nothing for Him to gain at all.
That is the difference between "generosity" when it applies to us and "generosity" as it applies to Hashem. To us, there is always a reason why we want to be generous - we always have something to gain - a mitzvah, a feeling of satisfaction, a good feeling, whatever. To Hashem, there was none of this.
He wanted to create us and give us Gan Eden - eternal, infinite happiness - only for our sakes. He gains nothing. His did it because He wanted to. For us. With absolutely zero benefit for himself.
Jess1246 Posted - 21 July 2004 20:35
Okay, I'm clear on that.
One more thing: if G-d doesn't experience emotion, then He must either be incapable of emotion or chose not to experience it. Surely G-d would chose to love His own people if it were a possibility, so then, is he incapable of love?
If so, wouldn't that be placing boundaries on a limitless G-d? And either way, what is the purpose of davening and fulfilling all sorts of requirements if not to please G-d?
MODERATOR Posted - 21 July 2004 20:48
G-d is incapable of emotion since He is incapable of change, since He is beyond time, and to change means to be a "victim" of time; and He cannot have emotions for various other reasons - it would contradict His simplicity and His perfection.
And no, this is not a limitation to G-d, as we explained all over this forum; thinking so is just a trick of words: you ask: if G-d is perfect then can He make Himself not perfect? No? Aha! The He cant do everything!
G-d cannot scratch His nose; He cannot kill Himself; He cannot be weak. No, no, no. The answer is a simple no. And no, its not a limit to be always limitless and its not a weakness if you cant be weak. For a detailed but simple explanation of this, check out the posts in this forum.
We pray to G-d to get close to Him, because it's better for us. His "pleasure" upon our fulfilling His will is only a moshol. It fulfills His will, and since we cannot imagine someone doing something totally for someone else without anything in return, its impossible for us to understand that G-d is doing just that. But He is.
yideleh Posted - 22 July 2004 9:08
So seriously mod, what's the point?
Jess1246 Posted - 22 July 2004 9:08
Okay. Thanks for explaining things.
MODERATOR Posted - 22 July 2004 9:24
The point of what, yideleh?
Our davening, like all our Mitzvos, are for our sake. There are two points to it:
1) When we stand there in front of Hashem talking to Him it reminds us and awakens us and teaches us and enhances our awareness of His presence and role in our lives (no, that wasn’t really said right - its not "His role in our lives" but rather "the role of our lives in His plan.")
2) The system that Hashem created to send benefit to the world ("shefa", which many people translate as "Influence", a more literal, but less meaningful translation) is that we have to "apply" for what we want, then He considers the application and approves it if it is best for us. But without an "application", Hashem does not consider the request.
The "application" is our Tefilos. If in fact we do NOT pray but Hashem sends us benefits anyway, those benefits are considered like welfare gifts, not entitlements (although we are never entitled to anything, at least when we pray we did follow the policies and procedures of the grant-giver), and it may be taken off of our share in Olam Habah, or we may be made to repay in some other way.
InspireMe Posted - 16 October 2004 20:19
But mod. why would Hashem create the world with no benefit for Himself, why would HE create the world at all... just go straight to the purpose of the creation?!!
MODERATOR Posted - 16 October 2004 20:37
We went through this. Please see the Basic Judaism forum - Creation of the World - Why?
frumteecher Posted - 01 May 2007 17:53
If G-d's love for us (and any other attributes, for that matter)is only a mashal, then how are we supposed to relate to Him in a real, emotional way? When I love another person, it's because I appreciate that which I know about the person (right?) - but I don't REALLY know anything about Hashem.
Yes, I know His actions, and what they are meant to communicate, but since they don't really reflect any attributes/ feelings of Hashem, how am I supposed to use that knowledge to connect to Him.
I hope I'm making sense... anyone out there?
MODERATOR Posted - 10 May 2007 13:27
Ok, Im sorry for not getting here sooner. Here's the story:
1) G-d has no emotions. Zero. Nada. G-d is totally Simple. An emotional reaction - love, hate, loneliness excitement - would mean that
(a) He changes,
(b) He is affected by stimuli (whatever it is that caused the emotion in G-d obviously affected Him),
(c) things have power over Him (since whatever it was that caused Him to feel the emotion controlled Him by causing the emotion in Him),
(d) He has boundaries (since emotions are exclusive of each other, each one has to exist separately from the others, and so some boundaries must exist that ensure that when one emotion is felt the others are not),
(e) He is made up of parts (since the emotions are a part but not all of Him),
(f) He is not the First Cause (anything that is made up of different attributes cannot be the First Cause since the combination of the attributes are its cause) ...
... and more.
All of this means that believing that Hashem has emotions is apikorsus, since you are making Hashem into a finite, composite, and measurable being.
When we say G-d "loves us" it means that G-d caused things to happen in such a way that it feels as if He loves us. If someone else would have done that to us, it would be driven by love.
Hashem has no incidental attributes at all meaning, there’s no such thing as anything that is part of Hashem - no such thing as "G-d's knowledge", "G-d's strength", "G-d's love" - all of those things would mean there are components that make up Hashem, which is not true. For explanation and details of this, please see the rest of the "G-d" forum, as this has been explained all over.
2) As far as loving Hashem, please bear in mind that Hashem is infinitely sentient and that He purposely created you and gives you everything, especially Torah and Mitzvos, and that means Gan Eden, and all this with no gain whatsoever for Himself.
I'd love anyone who did that for me.
3) As far as mesholim go, I mentioned before that there is a machlokes between the Ralbag and Shelah against the Rambam regarding the words of loshon hakodesh - such as ahava, sinah, and not only that, but also yad, regel etc. --- according to the shelah, all those words in their literal sense apply to something "upstairs" - a midah that hashem uses to run the world; the Rambam holds the opposite - that yad for instance in its literal form means a physical hand, and when used in regarding hashem it is not literal.
But this disagreement is only regarding the literal meaning of the word - does yad refer to a human hand or a midah of hashem that He uses to run the world, but everyone agrees that hashem has no hand, and so too hashem has no emotions. Emotions are like hands - they’re things physical beings have.
3) Now as far as Hashem "loving" everyone - and loving is Not meant in the emotional sense - this is what the Rambam says about someone who did Teshuva:
Yesterday he was hated by Hashem ("sanui lifnei hamakom") disgusting and distant and abominable, and today he is loved, and cherished, close, and a friend.
I think that clarifies things.
MODERATOR Posted - 10 May 2007 13:28
Please see:
http://www.frumteens.com/topic.php?topic_id=2520&forum
_id=49&topic_title=Can+you+define+HASHEM%3F&forum
_title=G-d&M=0&S=1
depressedAngel Posted - 10 May 2007 14:29
But if Hashem is hating s/o one day and loving him the next then isn’t he changing?
And when you translated love before you said that it means that Hashem is acting towards us in a way that if a human did we would day it was driven by love, then Rambam is saying that Hashem s/t doesn’t act like that (he Hated him yesterday) how is that possible?
taon Posted - 10 May 2007 18:16
“but if Hashem is hating s/o one day and loving him the next then isn’t he changing?”
We established Hashem loves. but does He hate? of does Hashem just want teshuva?
“and when you translated love before you said that it means that Hashem is acting towards us in a way that if a human did we would day it was driven by love, then Rambam is saying that Hashem s/t doesn’t act like that how is that possible?”
I don’t think I understand. do you mean how can Hashem feel and act in a way so beyond anything we can know?
MODERATOR Posted - 10 May 2007 21:30
Even though Hashem doesn’t change, things in this world obviously do. Because Hashem created a world that exists inside time, and is physical - all the things that He is not. When we say Hashem loves or hates, as I mentioned before, it does not mean Hashem has an emotion but rather Hashem treats the person in a certain way.
The fact that Hashem treated him one way now and a diff way later is not a change in Hashem, because the different ways of being treated depend on the person. Its like if a person jumps off the roof Hashem will treat him one way ("Boom!") and if a person walks down the street he will be treated differently.
Nobody would say that its a change in Hashem if yesterday the guy didn’t have a broken leg but today he did because he jumped off the roof. So too when someone does an aveirah he himself is causing Hashem to treat him a certain way - spiritual harm and punishment is the same as self-inflicted physical harm - it is a change in what happens to you, not in Hashem Himself.
When the Rambam says loved or hated by Hashem he does not mean it in the emotional sense, he means it in the sense that we mentioned - that Hashem responds to us in a way that it feels as though He loves or hates.
depressedAngel Posted - 11 May 2007 8:27
But when people sin Hashem doesn’t all of a sudden start acting toward them in a way that we would perceive as hateful so what is Ramban talking about?
Also 'R Mod even if a person would understand intellectually that G-d doesn’t have emotions and let's say going with the derech that when it says Hashem has ahava its a moshol- aren’t you supposed to think of Hashem as loving you- and that’s the reason it says hashem has ahava- otherwise what’s the point of the moshol?
MODERATOR Posted - 11 May 2007 11:51
You’re supposed to feel like Hashem loves you, even though intellectually you know its not love.
Just to clarify: when you say the derech that ahava by hashem is only a moshol, its not just a derech, its the absolute truth, the only "derech" and agreed upon by everyone who understands anything about Hashem. To say that Hashem has emotions, in any form or manner, is total idolatry. You are giving Hashem physical components. Giving Hashem an emotion is no different than giving Hashem a nose.
And its the Rambam, not Ramban. The point is that the changes only happen in this world, but not to Hashem. The change in our treatment is not because any change took place in Hashem - its because a change happened in the world that Hashem caused to happen. Hashem did not experience any change - the physical world did. The Rambam is just using the moshol.
depressedAngel Posted - 13 May 2007 11:52
I thought you said it was a machlokes that others say that Hashem's ahava is what’s real and our love is a moshol. that’s what I was referring to when I said if you get with that derech. and sorry about the ramban/m thing- I'm also mixing it up and its really bad! thanx so much
MODERATOR Posted - 14 May 2007 6:37
Please read my last post on this again. Nobody holds G-d has any emotions. That’s idolatry. The machlokes is regarding the word "ahava", and all loshon HaKodesh words for that matter. I wrote:
3) As far as mesholim go, I mentioned before that there is a machlokes between the Ralbag and Shelah against the Rambam regarding the words of loshon hakodesh - such as ahava, sinah, and not only that, but also yad, regel etc. --- according to the shelah, all those words in their literal sense apply to something "upstairs" - a midah that hashem uses to run the world; the Rambam holds the opposite - that yad for instance in its literal form means a physical hand, and when used in regarding hashem it is not literal.
So everyone agrees that Hashem has no emotions, and everyone agrees that He sometimes treats us in a way that it feels like He is showing love. That’s called His Midah of Ahava, which is more accurately a "way of acting" called Ahava.
Now some hold that the word Ahava in its literal sense refers to that way of acting that Hashem sometime uses, and when we refer to the human emotion of love as Ahava, it is only colloquial, because Ahava literally refers to Hashem's method of running the world that makes us feel loves. But nobody holds that Ahava means Hashem really loves.
Others hold that the Ahava literally refers to the human emotion, not to the derech that hashem sometimes uses. That derech we refer to as Ahava colloquially.
This machlokes has nothing to do with the word ahava per se, but rather to all of loshon hakodesh.
The Ramchal points out that if loshon hakodesh means the holy language grammatically it should be called loshon HaKodosh - not Kodesh. Loshon Hakodesh does not mean the Holy Language, but rather the Language of Holiness.
Meaning, that every word in Loshon HaKodesh - ahava, sinah, yad, regel, yam, eitz, even - they all refer to things "upstairs", and the fact that we use them to refer to physical things is always just a moshol.
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