ZIONISM-----israeli flag vs american flag

eretz-ha-zvi Posted - 28 June 2002 16:12

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I just came back after a full year in Eretz Yisroel and was shocked to see hundreds of American flags hanging all over my community from Jewish homes and cars, yet not one Israeli flag.

I know that people are trying to show solidarity with the thousands who lost their lives, and I respect that greatly, but what about the hundreds of Jews who have been killed in Eretz Yisroel?

Why is their blood cheaper than Americans? We have to ask ourselves who we are: Jewish Americans or American Jews.

MODERATOR Posted - 28 June 2002 16:55

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Those people are correct for flying an American flag.

Israel is a country, just like America or France, and the flag does not represent being a Jew any more than the French flag or the Canadian flag does, regardless of how many Jews live in those countries.

Jews must be loyal citizens of their host countries. We own the gratitude (especially America, more than any other country in history of the world). It was a terrible chilul Hashem and endangerment to Jews all over the country when, for instance, Anne Pollard said on 60 Minutes (quoted in last week's Jewish Week), when asked if she regrets spying on America, that she did "the right thing as a Jew."

To say that Jews are loyal to a foreign power against America puts all Jews in this country in suspicion of disloyalty to their country. Such an attitude is the best reason to be an anti-Semite r"l. How would you react if you saw an Italian spy making a similar statement??

The Israeli flag represents nothing Jewish. it represents only the secular political State of Israel, not the Jews. Judaism is a religion. Our flag is the Torah, and our loyalties are to G-d first and foremost, but as far as citizenship and countries are concerned, a Jew is a loyal citizen of his host country.

The idea that "Israel" represents Jews is pure Zionism, and redefines c"v the very definition of what the "Jewish Nation" is.

As Rav Saadiah Gaon said, the Jews are not like the other Goyim. We are a nation not because of a common country, or language, or army, borders, but rather we are a nation only by the Torah.

Nothing else defines our national standing.

proud2bfrum Posted - 18 June 2003 13:07

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Moderator, I have seen that so many times in this website you are totally anti-Zionism. I don't get it. Isn't living in Israel and creating a state, part of our hishtadlus for ultimately having E"Y and Moshiach bimherah biyameinu?

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Don't worry about me, I'm NOT Zionistic. I am the kind of person who argues that it is inappropriate to say hallel on Yom Ha'atzmaut, ask BatTzion, she'll vouch.

However, I am a little bit confused, because I learned in school that having an Israeli State is part of our Hishtadlus, etc. and also my father risked his life in the Israeli Army many times to create this State.

You can understand my internal conflict, I'm sure!

MODERATOR Posted - 21 July 2003 6:11

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Please see the Zionism forum. Making a State is not only NOT hishtadlus for the Geulah, but it prevents the Geulah. All Hishtadlus for the Geulah Sheleimah must be only spiritual. And we are sworn by G-d NOT to create any State because He is going to so it His way, and if we do it on our own, it will only lead to Jewish deaths. The exact words are: "You will be hunted down like animals and game in the field." You don’t want that. Only the Satan does.

I mentioned like twenty times, my moshol for being in Golus is like being on a life-support system. You pray fervently for the release from that prison, you try to get the best doctors, but you don’t dare pull the plug on your own until the doctor comes and does it himself. That’s not hishtadlus. That’s killing the patient.

And so our job in Golus is to pray for our release, and to procure for ourselves the best Medical Assistance - meaning, the most merits we can so that Hashem will give us the most help, but we dare not - dare not! - try to end this golus ourselves by lessening in any way our physical being in Golus. That is not hishtadlus; that is murder.

I do understand your internal conflict. And it hurts to hear you in that position. You must thank Hashem that your father was saved from all that danger, and it is the biggest zechus for him that his daughter (or son) turns back to Hashem with the proper Emunah.

Please understand that your knowing and accepting the truth is not a betrayal of your father's lifestyle but the greatest loyalty to him and his life and his soul. In the Olam Haemes, and, b'ezras hashem, with G-d's help, in this world as well, your father will thank you for it.