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ZIONISM / ANTI-----should we give it back? 2

IkeHolmes Posted - 03 December 2001 16:47

What do the Gedolim and poskim say these days about the fate of Israel? Should they be giving land back? Should the Israelis try to immigrate to other countries?

Should people in chutz l'oretz, namely America, try to pressure the government to be nicer to Israel, or the opposite to be hard on Israel?

MODERATOR Posted - 03 December 2001 19:08

There are two questions here. One, whether giving back land for peace will in fact save lives, and two, if it will save lives, should we do it.

The second question is easier to answer. We must do everything in our power to save Jewish lives. Nobody has come up with any legitimate heter to allow Jews to be killed because you want to hold on to your land.

The first question is more difficult - will giving back land in fact save lives or on the contrary, will it endanger more lives?

That is a more difficult question, and the answer can change from day to day depending on the situation. Compounding the problem is that the people who have the military intelligence and information needed to make such a decision - the Israeli politicians - have their own political agendas, don’t care about the Torah and cannot be relied upon to endanger Jewish lives. Plus, they can’t agree among themselves anyway.

That leaves us in a bad place. Everyone can have their opinion, but this is dinei nefashos here - life and death matters - and it pays to deal with facts, not opinions.

What we do know is that we must do whatever it takes to protect the lives of the Jews living in Eretz Yisroel (and Chutz La'aretz), and we should make whatever concessions necessary for peace. The only question is, what are those concessions if any. Nobody knows for sure.

IkeHolmes Posted - 04 December 2001 19:14

Thank you for your reply. Can those Yidden who live in Eretz Yisroel move to chutz laaretz?

If the medina is Assur it should be a mitzvah to disassemble it. Helping Jews immigrate to America, or to another country would be one way of doing that. Also, that would be a hishtadlus to save lives.

MODERATOR Posted - 04 December 2001 20:45

You can’t just move 5,000,000 Jews out of Israel. Its science fiction - wont work, won't happen, can’t happen.

There is nothing wrong with living in Eretz Yisroel - it is greatly meritorious for those who do it properly.

There is also a disagreement about if the prohibition of the Medinah means there is an obligation on us to undo it after it was illegitimately created. The Steipler ZTL has a letter where he says he does not see such an obligation. The Satmar Rav ZTL clearly disagreed.

Truth Seeker Posted - 20 March 2003 3:57

I'm confused here: Elsewhere you wrote that the Satmarar Rov held that dismantling the Medina (state) would be a great danger and the only thing we can do is pray that Hashem dismantles it peacefully.

Is the answer that the SR held that it really was obligatory to dismantle the state, only b/c of pikuach nefesh (danger to life) we could not fulfill it?

I'm also confused as to just how it would be possible to do the right thing, according to _any_ of the true Gedolim [Torah sages] (whether Satmar or Agudist) once , b'avoneisunu harabbim, the Medina HaTemeiah became a reality.

I mean, let's imagine , for the sake of argument, that everyone in Eretz Yisroel, including all of the leaders of the Zionist state and their entire military were to say to the Gedolim, "Okay, we realize we were wrong. Now tell us what the Torah requires us to do".

What would the Gedolim tell them? You say that even the Satmarar Rov held that the state must _not_ be simply dismantled and given to the Arabs but yet if all of the government and IDF ('Israel Defense Forces') decided to follow the SR's words literally, barring a miracle*, the Arabs would massacre and devour the Jews, R"L (May the Merciful One Save Us), as you yourself noted elsewhere.

*- and we are not allowed to rely on miracles

Please don't get me wrong, I am vehemently ANTI-Zionist but I am also very confused about this.

MODERATOR Posted - 20 March 2003 4:35

You’re more correct than confused.

Yes, the Satmar position is that the Medinah should be theoretically dismantled but because there is no safe way to do it, we can only pray for G-d to do it from on high - at the very least, when Moshiach comes it will be dismantled.

If, in your theoretical case, the Zionists lets say realized that their making a State has only led to thousands upon thousands of Jewish deaths in wars and terrorist attacks, and thrown fuel on the already raging fired of anti-Semitism around the world, and they would be willing to give back the entire state, we would then have to find a safe way to do that before it is done. The Satmar Rav in Al Hageulah suggests something like an international peace keeping force to make sure the residents are safe. But that was back then; it doesn’t mean that is feasible now.

It may involve mass emigration from Eretz yisroel - sad but a lot less sadder than additional Jewish lives being spent in wars and terror attacks(there is no heter to allow even one Jewish life to be lost c"v no matter how many people get to daven at the kosel). It may mean building a wall (they started that already) like the Berlin Wall to divide Jewish and Arab territory, along with a peace keeping force; it may - and this I believe for sure - involve spending many years undoing the public impression that the Zionists have worked so hard to create - that Jews think the land is their G-d given right and we are willing to fight for that right (in golus the land is not ours, and besides, we never risk lives in a fight for ANY rights except against shmad); it may involve many many other things. It will all depend on the circumstances.

Right now, though, there is clearly nothing that anyone has come up with as a solution. We are only humans - even if a solution exists, it does not mean that we will necessarily figure it out.

There is a difference between relying on a miracle and needing one. You don’t jump off the roof and rely on a miracle that you are going to fly. But if someone pushes you off a roof, the only solution is to pray for a miracle. Until someone finds us a viable parachute, the only thing for us to do now, after the Zionists pushed us off this roof and put us in danger like this, is to pray.

Truth Seeker Posted - 22 April 2003 9:05

Thank you very much for posting my reply and taking the time to reply to it.

You wrote,

"It may involve mass emigration from Eretz yisroel - sad but a lot less sadder than additional Jewish lives being spent in wars and terror attacks"

How do you reconcile this with your writing the following in your post just above dated 04 December 2001 21:45:

"You cant just move 5,000,000 Jews out of Israel. Its science fiction - wont work, wont happen, cant happen."


MODERATOR Posted - 22 April 2003 10:11

The first was my answer when you asked me theoretically what could be done. Mass emigration is a good theory.

But in the real world, it wont happen. People wont do it; they cant just get up and move out -- 5 million including many unemployable citizens.... Therefore, we can only pray.

runnerc Posted - 14 September 2004 23:43

"it may - and this I believe for sure - involve spending many years undoing the public impression that the Zionists have worked so hard to create"

I don't understand. Don't we usually not rely on political actions? My teachers have told me that "write to your congressman" is nice, but we rely on Hashem first.

MODERATOR Posted - 14 September 2004 23:53

I am not sure what your question is. Of course we rely on Hashem, but Hishtadlus is an obligation. And making a Kiddush Hashem, and undoing a Chilul Hashem, are our jobs.

And when someone puts Jews in danger by slandering them in public we absolutely SHOULD tell the public that they are misrepresenting the facts. In fact, the Halachah is that if a Jew is involved in a crime, and that causes the goyim to think that all Jews are criminals as well, in that case, we proactively give that person over to the gentiles for punishment in order to prevent the community form suffering because of the actions of this sinner - and in order not to allow the goyim to think we are all criminals.

So too, the Zionists have created a terrible chilul hashem in the world, and put Jews in danger by their actions, and their running around telling the world that they represent Jews. It is therefore our duty to tell the world that they are imposters, we have nothing to do with them, and that we are not responsible for anything they say or do.

And to the extent that writing to your congressman helps, it is a Mitzvah to do so. Rabbi Avigdor Miller ZTL used to actually demand that his congregation constantly write such letters. He himself did so as well.

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