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JEWS and NON JEWS-----ohr lagoyim

jessica Posted - 16 January 2001 17:06

Ok, I know that I shouldn't question Hashem's ways, but this has been on my mind for a long time. maybe I’m wrong, but wasn't part of the reason why the shvatim were angry at yosef was because he was Yaakov’s favorite.

Yes, I know there were many other reasons (they thought he was sinning, etc.), but wasn't this one of them.

Ok, now here's my question: Hashem favors us over the non-Jews.... how can this be? if we see from yosef and his brothers that this caused many problems why would Hashem make us his favorite? does Hashem want us to be disliked by everyone else? or am I just missing something here?

MODERATOR Posted - 16 January 2001 17:43

Yes, Chazal criticize Yaakov Avinu for treating Yosef different than the rest of the brothers, thereby generating animosity within them.

But it's different. Hashem asked the Goyim if they want to be Jews and they refused. They had - and still have, actually, the ability to be the favorite and they refuse. Yaakov never gave the brothers such an option.

Second, the special quality of the Jews is that they have a spark of Hashem within them. We represent Hashem. To hate the Jews is to hate Hashem.

jessica Posted - 18 January 2001 15:30

Thank you so much, moderator. you answered my question well.

Goy! Posted - 12 February 2001 19:32

Your answer didn't satisfy me, dear moderator. I am a goy and don't remember being asked by G-d if I want to be Jewish and thus gain the status of a favorite child of his.

Had He indeed asked me, my answer would have been clear - I would definitely prefer to be a yid , even if that meant the necessity to accept the "yoke" of the commandments .

You know better than I that the mitzvot aren't a burden, they are a privilege and a great joy! Why then should I prefer to be a gentile?

Hashem made me a goy without asking about my opinion and now you say that I am not His favorite because I didn't want it! I want it more than anything! Hashem might have asked my ancestors and maybe they refused but not me!

What do you mean by saying that we goyim still have the ability to be G-d's favorite? Are you talking about conversion? Why then the Jews discourage potential converts, don't they want to share their privileged status?

And tell me; honestly, how many people in your frum community would accept me as fully Jewish if I converted? How many would care more about my genuine sincerity than about my yichus?

How many frum fathers would find me a desirable spouse for their daughters? How many times would I have to listen to remarks like “once a goy, always a goy"? Just read some frum newspapers like, for example Dei'ah ve Dibur and see what they write about the gerim! Not a positive thing. they seem to be interested only in some bogus, non-orthodox conversions. Why don't they, once in a while, publish an article about some sincere ger?

The yidden treat all converts suspiciously, they don't want to share their G-d and their privileged status. "[Gerim] tend to cause problems for us and themselves" - these are your own words. I don't want to be a problem! Like many others, I want to be a Yid but a real one and not second-class.

Is it not fair, in my opinion, to say that all goyim "have the ability to become G-d's favorite but refuse to do it”?

Sometimes its you who don't want the goyim to know Hashem.

MODERATOR Posted - 12 February 2001 21:07

You do have the ability to convert. The reason we discourage converts - not reject them - is to weed out the insincere ones. We do nobody any favors by allowing them to become Jews only for them to later discover that it more difficult than they imagined. The discouragement that we are instructed to use is to emphasize the level of worship that Jews are expected to perform. If the non-Jew responds that he considers it a privilege and not a burden we accept him wholeheartedly.

If you do convert, you will be accepted wholeheartedly. The phrase "once a goy always a goy" is not in the Orthodox lexicon.

Wherever you got it from, it's misleading. That will not happen. Moshe Rabbeinu married a convert, as did Yehoshua. Our history is replete with prominent converts, such as Onkeles the great translator of the Torah.

That notwithstanding, there are converts that have caused us problems. The most prominent among these is the Erev Rav - the multitude of converts that came out of Egypt with us. that caused untold problems for our nation.

But whether you are going to be a problem or an asset is your choice. And whichever way you choose, you will be recognized for it.

You say you have a problem with what is being written about Gerim in Orthodox papers but then you say that these articles are referring to Conservative and Reform Geirim. Yes, such so-called Geirim are only negative detriments to the world, since they are not real Geirim at all, but rather non-Jews who were mislead into believing that they are Jewish by unscrupulous or ignorant people.

But if you want to be a sincere Ger you will be accepted. But the fact is that part of being sincere is accepting the Halachah, which explicitly rejects those Conservative and Reform bogus converts, and if you do want to convert, you will have to accept that Halachah as well.

And incidentally, there are a number of books dealing with the many positive aspects of converts in our community. For a small sampling check out

I happen to know a number of real wonderful converts. One of them, a black woman by the name of Rena Blum of Far Rockaway, New York, is a popular speaker at Yeshiva PTA's and women's gatherings, and is currently working on a book about her experiences. All of the above converts, incidentally, are married, some to other converts, some to Baalei Teshuva, and some to none of the above.

You may not remember Hashem asking you to be Jewish, and I don't remember either. It happened to our souls, and, according to the Shelah, the "stuff" that our physical bodies are made out of, but it was not the kind of conversation that we normally store in memory. But don't worry, it happened. It says so in the same Torah that you value so highly.

R. Akiva Eger ZT"L writes that when the nations refused to accept the Torah, not every single member of every single nation refused. Most did. In general, they did, but there were individuals who did want to accept it. Those individuals, says R. Akiva Eger, become Geirim.

Me Posted - 28 March 2001 22:49

if "goy!" is really a goy how does he know all those yeshivishe words???? and how to use them correctly?

Its all Good!! Posted - 18 April 2001 2:05

Are goyim that are oved A"Z chiva mesaa?

MODERATOR Posted - 18 April 2001 2:11

Yup. Any act of Avodah Zarah that a Jew gets Misah for, a Goy gets Misah for as well. However, even for "minor" Avodah Zarah - meaning, that Jews would not be chayav misah for, such as planting an Asheira, they are still prohibited to do even though they do not get Misah.

alex123 Posted - 24 April 2001 16:59

So, all the Catholics today are chayav misa because their religion is avoda zara? And what about us?

Am Yisrael are supposed to be an Or Lagoyim. If so many people are being over avoda zara, we must not be doing a very good job.

MODERATOR Posted - 24 April 2001 17:03

Being a "light" to the Nations doesn’t mean were responsible for what they do. It means to set an example. If they choose to emulate us, that’s their choice. If they decide to worship a god that impregnated married women and has a "family" despite what we have shown them, that’s also their choice.

her Posted - 27 April 2001 18:09

Ok, but seriously, the average non-Jew is not running to emulate the Jew!

Some people have never heard of the Jews, and most Catholics think they're great people who are serving G-d.

They don't really have any reason to think otherwise.

MODERATOR Posted - 27 April 2001 18:10

That’s their choice. Their responsibility.

danny Posted - 26 October 2001 16:08


"Yup. Any act of Avodah Zarah that a Jew gets Misah for, a Goy gets Misah for as well. However, even for "minor" Avodah Zarah - meaning, that Jews would not be chayav misah for, such as planting an Asheira, they are still prohibited to do even though they do not get Misah.

If I remember correctly, a gentile's punishment is always misah, even when for a Jew the punishment is less. Of course, today, since we don't have the Sanhedrin or the Beis Hamikdash, execution is not performed.

MODERATOR Posted - 29 October 2001 18:10


Rambam Melachim 9:2.

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