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12.28.2006

SCHAR V'ONESH-----the purpose of onesh

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gavreelah Posted - 25 April 2001 20:49


so basically anyone who has caused genocide or sinned without remorse over and over just "evaporate" in the after life, do they get a second chance? Or do they loose their souls, where do people such as Hitler go, if there is no hell


MODERATOR Posted - 25 April 2001 20:52


Sure there is a "hell." Evil people go there.

If someone is worthy, he does get "another chance" by returning in a Gilgul - reincarnation. But getting reincarnated is terribly painful for the soul - maybe more so, even, than hell. This is because this world is an unnatural place for a soul - it belongs with G-d in His world.

Some evil people spend eternity in oblivion after they roast for a long time in hell. Oblivion is also painful for the soul, since these souls remain forever separate from Hashem.



ptgard2281 Posted - 26 April 2001 18:36


Does a person/soul remember if they lived in another life?


MODERATOR Posted - 26 April 2001 18:37


As a rule, no. Great Tzadikim, however, Baalei Ruach haKodesh, have been able to discern their own past lives, as well as those of others. Rav Chaim Vital's "Sefer HaGilgulim" is the most classic example of this.


nu nu Posted - 18 June 2001 18:31


The moderator wrote:

Some evil people spend eternity in oblivion after they roast for a long time in hell. Oblivion is also painful for the soul, since these souls remain forever separate from Hashem.

My Rebbi said that someone who is a rasha gamur is subject to immediate oblivion
as soon as they die; they don't suffer in "hell" first. That would be pointless, since
gehenom is only to purify a neshama, if the person isn't going to get any schar; Hashem never wants to subject someone to pain with no tachlis, so the rasha simply ceases to exist. Why should he "roast for a long time in hell"?




MODERATOR Posted - 21 June 2001 17:12


The Gemora (Rosh Hashanah 17a) says that evil doers (Posh'im b'gufan) first burn in Gehinom and then their bodies are undone and their souls get burnt up.

The reason is because Gehinom is not merely a purification process but a punishment as well. They go to Gehinom because they deserve it.




nu nu Posted - 02 July 2001 22:11


So what if they deserve it? Hashem created the world to do good to people (which of course they didn't intrinsically deserve).

These people managed to live their lives such that Hashem could not give them any good, so they must be destroyed.

Where does the concept of punishment come in? The only thing it seems to accomplish is to make us feel better to say "such-and-such a rasha is still down there burning", because it is a difficult thing to conceptualize that oblivion is the worst possible thing someone could suffer, so it seems more right to us to say that they are burning.

My Rebbi discussed these things in a Shiur on derech hashem, some guys brought gemaras like that one in rosh hashana, and some similar ones about bilaam.

He said they are a pela and he doesn't it understand them that way.

Before you say that he is krum, I should mention he is a Talmid of an Adam Gadol here in e"y and has been studying at the mir and lakewood for the past 20 or 30 years.

btw: shouldn't we apply the concept of kim lei mderaba minei?




MODERATOR Posted - 02 July 2001 22:54


The Sefer haIkarim III:32 explains that the purpose of punishment is to help motivate people not to sin - through Yiras HaOnesh.

The punishment helps people beat their Yetzer Horah and NOT sin, which means that the punishment is there in order to do good in the world.

But this system will only work if someone who refuses to avoid the sin will indeed get punished.

The purpose of Onesh is to prevent sins through Yiras haOnesh. But you can't have Yiras HaOnesh without the Onesh.

So the purpose of punishment is for the good, but if someone willingly violates the purpose, and forces the pain upon himself, then that is his own doing.

If people would get away with doing bad, that would encourage people to do bad. And that's bad.

(Compare Bais Yosef CM 71:7, that the purpose of threatening thieves is not to hurt the thief but to get him to return the stolen object so that he will not get hurt.)

Regarding the Gemora, I don't see what the "peleh" is, nor do I see that the Meforshim had any problem understanding it k'pshuto, like your classmates. Is there any other way to understand the gemora?




nu nu Posted - 25 July 2001 23:12


bs'd

But you can't have Yiras HaOnesh without the Onesh.

the point is that oblivion is the worst possible Onesh.

Regarding the Gemora, I don't see what the "peleh" is, nor do I see that the Meforshim had any problem understanding it k'pshuto, like your classmates. Is there any other way to understand the gemora?

Apparently there is, because my Rebbi understands it differently.




MODERATOR Posted - 25 July 2001 23:15


I don't know that oblivion is the worst Onesh - I would say eternal pain is worse. But that doesn't matter. The reason Onesh exists - oblivion or otherwise - is in order to generate Yiras HaOnesh. And since without Onesh people would be doing more sins, Onesh is justified since it, too, causes good in the world, namely, Yiras HaOnesh.

Therefore, there is no need to explain the Gemora any differently than it is understood by the Rishonim (see Ramban in Toras HaAdam, Shaar HaGemul), or your classmates.

How else can the gemora be explained?

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