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Admonit Posted - 28 October 2004 7:53

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This man in the library sat me down and said:"Moses said G-d said no-one should go up to the mountain besides him.

Then he said god said to kill the midianites. Then he said god said to kill the women and children. That’s genocide!

And you know why Moses said no one should go up? Because he didn’t want anyone to contradict him that’s why!"

So I told him ill be glad to check it out. What do you say to that?

MODERATOR Posted - 28 October 2004 8:47

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You should tell him that he should have asked a better question: According to http://www.census.gov/cgi-bin/ipc/pcwe about 4.75 million people die every month throughout the world. That makes over 56.5 million people a year.

Who do you think causes these people to die? G-d. Fifty six million people a year. Talk about holocausts! What gives G-d the right to be such a mass murderer? Throughout history, entire civilizations were wiped out - now that's genocide!

And if you add up the amount of people who G-d caused to die throughout history, I don’t even know how many millions and millions it would be.

And your friend in the library is bothered by the Midianim?!

The answer is that everybody dies in his proper time. That’s "normal". Murder is when you kill someone before his time is up. So your friend assumes that when G-d sends the malach hamaves to break a bridge and have someone fall to his death, that is OK, because the person's "time is up", but when G-d tells Moshe to throw a midianite off a bridge that is murder because the victim should still live.

And that is his mistake. For when G-d decides that someone should die - be it at the hands of the Angel of Death or one of Hashem's human agents - that person's time is up. G-d could kill all the midianim at the hands of an earthquake or at the hands of Klall Yisrael - same difference.

Except for the fact that the earth has no bechirah, and therefore is incapable, Boruch Hashem, of rebelling against G-d and disobeying.

But people are. And so if your friend in the library would be told by the Torah to kill someone and he refused, it would be the same as if the Malach Hamaves was told by G-d that someone's time is up and he refused to end that person's life.

Your friend in the library surely understands that it is part of G-d's unfathomable, cosmic plan when a volcano erupts and a civilization is wiped out. Nobody would accuse G-d of genocide. Or the malach hamaves who was only following G-d's orders.

You know, maybe some time around 3000 years ago, someone died, went up to heaven, and was shown a video of the holocaust - concentration camps, torture, death, genocide. And G-d angrily tells him "This is all your fault - you caused this to happen. It wasn’t supposed to happen - it wasn’t in my plan - but you did it with your free will! You are a murderer of six million Jews!"

"How can this be, G-d?" the accused would say. "That scene takes place 3000 years after I died. How could I be responsible for that?"

But G-d answered, "Remember when I commanded you all to kill the midianites? And remember when you came upon that little baby and you couldn’t do it? Remember that?"

"Yes I do," he says. "I was merciful."

"Merciful? More merciful than me?" G-d thundered back. "That baby was the great-grandmother of Hitler! Hitler was never supposed to have been born. In My divine plan, that baby was never supposed to grow up or have children. I gave the Divine plan to you to fulfill. You know I said to do it. Yet you think that you know better? Now look at the fruits of your actions!"

Tell that to your friend in the library.

(Btw - the above is a fictitious version of the true story of King Shaul and Agag, King of Amalek. Same idea.)

Admonit Posted - 07 November 2004 15:05

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Thank you. Though I hopefully will not see him again. Much obliged.

Qs Posted - 12 November 2004 7:22

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MODERATOR:
"Murder is when you kill someone before his time is up"

Well, couldn't you just say that is was Hashem's divine plan? Obviously if you were able to kill him, his time was up - so it is not murder. It is impossible to kill someone before his time is up since Hashem controls the world! So the idea of "murder" cannot exist!

MODERATOR Posted - 12 November 2004 7:38

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The Ohr HaCHaim explains that is not so. Yosef's brothers threw him into a pit, Chazal say, to see if he would live or die, which would determine whether Hashem wanted him alive or dead.

He says the reason they had to throw him into a pit to determine this and not just hit him with a rock or something like that, is because a Baal Bechirah is given the ability by G-d to kill people even if it not their proper time to die, but snakes and scorpions - which were in the pit - only bite if G-d wants them to.

So if a human being kills someone it is very possible that he would not have died otherwise; but if an animal kills someone we know that person was destined to die there and then.

The Ohr HaChaim is following the Zohar.The Metzudas Dovid says a similar thing in Daniel, explaining that CHananiah, Mishael and Azariah could have jumped out of the Kivshon HaAish but didn’t - because they were worried that Nevuchadnetzar would kill them if they did. Yet they were not as worried about burning alive, because fire is not a Baal Bechirah and thus burns only who Hashem tells it to burn. But Nevuchadnetzar, as Baal Bechirah, can kill someone even if G-d does not want him dead.

(Note: The Chovos Halevovos and Sefer HaChinuch disagree with the above)

1983 Posted - 14 November 2004 5:52

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Moderator, Yahser Koach on those answers. I have heard these 2 questions asked and answered numerous times but I truly think that these are the best answers I have heard. I was extremely impressed. Keep up the good work.